Proof Test for The Bible!
While using Stumble Upon to stumble the “Christian” category today, I finally found it! As soon as I saw it, I nearly shit bricks! The thing I had been searching for all my life, at last, was right at my fingertips : a proof test for the Bible!
The site claiming to provide this is ProveTheBible.net (undoubtedly, “ProveTheBible.com was already taken), and they even had an incredibly simple diagram for idiots like me to follow! Here is that wonderful diagram.
The amazing "Bible Proof Test"!
Anyone that knows me knows I’m incredibly open minded. I will believe anything as long as there is proper evidence to support it; and what turned me away from Christianity to begin with was merely my inability to find proof for it. Nonetheless, my search for evidence has continued and finally, it appeared I was going to have this proof.
So, as I do with any proposed idea, I read the proposed theory and then asked myself very simple childlike questions about it to see if it passes initial inspection. If it passes the first stage of scrutiny (the stage I like to call “The Child Mind Stage) I move the idea on for more intense scrutiny. If it does NOT pass the “Child Mind Stage”, then no further scrutiny is necessary. Handling all claims like this makes it very efficient to figure out what is more probable to be true than not.
So time to give this “Proof Test” the “Child Mind” test!
Let’s start at the very beginning.
Part 1 : “What is truth? Is their a God? Why consider the Bible?” Important questions, and apparently to find out, we have to continue on to step 2!
Part 2: “Is what we read in the Bible today, that which was written long ago?” According to ProveThebible.net, the answer is YES! The Bible was indeed written a long time ago! That’s awesome news. Only, even to a child, that’s not news at all. Okay, so maybe the proof lies in part 3!
Part 3: “Can that which is written long ago be believed?” ProveTheBible.net says YES, that which was written long ago can be believed! After all, we accept a lot of stuff written long ago as truth; so that means everything written long ago can be believed!!!! Errr, wait a second. No it doesn’t. My “Child Mind” tells me that lots of things were written a long time ago that are not true. In fact, practically every fairy tale on Earth was written a long time ago. So yes, some things that are written a long time ago can be believed, as so far as there is evidence to back them up; while other things written long ago are clearly untrue.
Hmm, we seem to have hit a snag on part 3. Never mind. Perhaps there is something later that will explain this obvious bullshit. Let’s keep going!
Part 4 says: “Does believing what the Bible wrote confirm Jesus as God?” My “Child Mind” says the most logical way to answer this is to go to the Bible and see what it has to say about this.
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.
John 14:28
My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Hmm, those verses don’t seem to say Jesus is God at all. They have him sitting next to God; he is hearing things from God, God is forsaking him, and he is telling folks to not call him good because only God is good. So I know right away that even if other verses say he is God, then clearly they are contradictory … unless you expect me to believe that he was both “God” and “Not God” at the same time, because my “Child Mind” says holding two completely opposite viewpoints as both being true is retarded.
So hmm, once again it seems we are having a problem with this “proof”. At this point I think any rational human being could just stop, but let’s continue on to the other steps, just for fun.
Part 5: “Do Jesus and God express authority over our lives in the Bible?” This one is a winner! The Bible definitely expresses authority over your life. So much so in fact, that you will be tortured forever and ever if you don’t follow it! You can’t get more authoritative than that. But my “Child Mind” says, hey, isn’t a person who would torture another person for all of eternity the bad guy? I mean, I doubt even Hitler was that cruel, was he? Hitler didn’t want to torture Jews forever. He just wanted them dead. Wanting someone dead is much better than wanting to torture them forever. Right?
Hmmm.. Ok, at this point I want to run away from ProveTheBible.net before any of the crazy gets on me. But we are almost at the end, might as well see it through.
Apparently, according to the chart, you can just skip over parts 6 and 7 and go straight to the conclusion! But just for shits and giggles, lets see what these “unimportant” parts are.
Part 6 is all about the brutal, terrible atrocities committed by followers of Christianity. Notice how the diagram just skips right over all that. Don’t concern yourself with those trivial points!
Part 7 addresses many common logical arguments people have towards Christianity. You know, all the tough questions like, “Why would an all merciful God torture you for eternity?” It’s obvious why this one doesn’t need to be considered. Just skip right over it like you did part 6, and go right to the end!
Conclusion: “The Bible has authority over your lives!” That is clearly the only logical conclusion a human being could reach after reading this chart. And clearly anyone who doesn’t believe so is being deceived by an evil force called Satan that was created by God and unleashed upon this earth. Why cant you people see that?!?
Anyway, in all seriousness, I must say I’m a bit disappointed in this evidence. It turned out not to be the holy grail I was looking for after all. But I did learn a valuable lesson … even the retarded can make charts.
This same type of logic chain is what got Anselm sainted. Begging the question, it’s the scientific method of lunatics. The guy who came up with this might end up Pope.
I agree Paulitik. I thought this chart was hilarious. As soon as I saw it I knew I had to do a blog entry about it. This shit practically writes itself.
wanna know what originally drove me away from Christianity?
The Peays
even though you may believe christianity is wrong, why not disprove other religions? what makes christianity the main religion that everyone picks on? Buddhists hardly get ridiculed like this. If we believe our religion is true, why does it matter for you? you make your own decisions. I’m not trying to attack you. i completely agree that it is ok to to decide not to beleive something, but i find it unethical to patronize others for their beliefs. is it neccessary to call us “retards” simply because you do not agree with our lifestyle. TRUE Christians don’t condescend others. I disagree with some of the other radical “christians” who use profane language and give the rest of Christian society a bad name.we are called to love and i do apologize for their behavior. i know that i have happiness and joy in all aspects of my life because of my relationship with Jesus. I hope the road you take leads you to happiness as well
Hello Chicago and welcome.
Ok first question: “How come everyone picks on Christianity and not the other regions.” Well I can’t speak for “everyone”, but I can certainly speak for myself. I pick on all people of faith, but I fully admit that I do focus more of my attention on Christianity.
The reason is very simple. I am an American. The Christian religion personally effects me more than the other religions. Not to mention that this Christian nation has more weapons of mass destruction then any other country.
Christians are denying people civil right like with prop 8, and they are holding back life saving technologies, like with the stem cell research.
On top of that, they teach their children, from birth, that if they do not submit to a book of fairy tales, they will be tortured for eternity. I think it is very wrong to teach children this. Especially when you have absolutely no evidence to back up this wild claim.
I think that this society I live in would be better off if we did not teach kids this bullshit all their lives. It turns them into very fucked up adults who feel the need to bomb other countries and kill foreigners. It turns them into adults that are bigots and torture supporters.
I think the bible is perhaps the most unpleasant book ever written. I do not believe it is beneficial for our society to continue to pretend this is a book we should listen to for morals. It’s time to evolve past this bronze aged bullshit.
Besides, Christianity has the most members. Its the biggest target.
Well Mr. Smith, I know that nothing I can say will persuade you into following the same beliefs that I have, and I am not trying to do that. But I can speak for myself by saying that I am not perfect. No one is perfect. I mess up all the time. I lie. I curse. I may gossip. does this make me a “bad” Christian? No, i believe it makes me human. Everyone screws up. but even knowing all of this, i still hold to my faith.
I do not belive faith hinders. I believe that it saves. I was not always a Christian. I used to participate in many immoral activities. I hated my life. I had no one to help me out of my destructive lifestyle. But one day my friend wanted me to go to church with her. I hesitantly obliged. i expected some preachy lunatic to tell me about how bad i was and that if I didn’t change, i would burn for eternity. to my surprise, it was much deeper. He explained God as a loving God, not someone who condemns you for not following His every rule. God doesn’t want us to go to hell. If He did, then Him creating us was pointless. You wouldnt plant a garden then tear it up. He created us to love Him. But He didnt want to MAKE us love Him, because then it wouldnt be real love. We would just be robots doing His commands. Instead He gave us the CHOICE to love Him or not. Ever since I allowed Jesus into my life, I have had such a joy. My life didn’t get easier at all, but i knew that someone loved me, and wanted me.
No matter what i do on this earth, God has forgiven me. does that give me the right to go and do anything i want? nope. but it does let me know, that when i do mess up, it’s okay. i just keep trying to do what i know is right.
I dont need science or tangible proof to tell me how I feel. I just know. and i know that when i look back on my life and compare it to my life now, I feel much happier. I am not trying to lure you to “my side” because in the end you make your own choice. I am all about making decisions for yourself, but that doesn’t mean i agree with all decisions. i just wanted to give you a Christian’s perspective of everything. I don’t speak for us all, but i do for myself. If i said anything offensive, I do apologize and i hope you have a fantastic day.
Ok first off. You’re wrong. There is definitely something you can say to make me follow the same beliefs you have. All you have to do is show me evidence that what you are saying is true. If you show me evidence, I will have no choice but to believe you.
It’s not the lying and cursing that makes you a bad Christian. It is scaring children from birth into believing they will be tortured for eternity if they do not submit. It is using bronze age myths to justify your bigotry towards homosexuals. It is spreading the ridiculous lie that the heinous acts committed by the god of the bible are somehow moral. Those are the things that make you a “bad” Christian.
Like I said in the other thread. It sounds like you needed therapy, and instead of therapy, you joined a cult. That’s the opposite of therapy.
God doesn’t want us to go to hell? Well lets see, God created hell. He created us, and every single person he created, he created them knowing if they were going to go to hell or not.
On top of that, an all knowing god who created us would know exactly how much evidence each of us needs in order to believe in him. So if he creates us needing a certain amount of evidence, and then chooses not to give it to us, and then sends us to hell (that he also created) for being exactly how he created us to be to begin with, how can you not blame him for that?
And let me ask you one question, and Christians never answer this very straight forward question, because they are cowards, so I don’t really expect you to answer it either, but I’ll ask anyway. Is their anything your child could EVER do, including not loving you, that would make you lock them in the basement and torture them?”
If you support torture for any reason, even if it’s God himself doing it, you are a sick fuck. They make horror movies about people who torture. And they are ALWAYS the bad guys. That’s one of the many reasons it is so easy for me to tell that you Christians are the bad guys.
Then you proceed to tell me how god made us to love him, but he doesn’t want to “make” us love him. Do you have any proof of this? Why should I believe you over any other nut? When you make extraordinary claims, you must provide the extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is on you to back up what you are saying. And if you can’t do it, why in the world would you expect me to believe you?
Then you tell me no matter what you do on earth, God has forgiven you. But just telling me this does nothing. Lunatics say all kinds of shit. The internet is full of crazy people. Why should anyone on earth believe you?
Then you tell me you just “know” you’re right. This is what crazy people say, and this is why rational people don’t listen to crazy people.
I was a Christian for 32 years. I very much understand the christian perspective. I also understand it’s a cult based entirely in fear.
Do you or do you not condemn the murders, rapes, genocide, incest, torture and slavery that goes on in the bible? How can you read this book and not think its just the most awful thing ever? What is wrong with you? Are you psychotic? Have you even read the Bible yet? Be honest?
I don’t need any bronze aged myths to know that homosexuality is a mental disorder and that it does not qualify as a “special class” Only those that are brainwashed (with no proof)into believing that homosexuality is perfectly natural and unavoidable beleive that malarki.
And I certainly don’t consider this a Christian Nation. Yes there are some 10 commandment type stuff built into our laws but other than that we have a very diverse melting pot in this country.
“Do you or do you not condemn the murders, rapes, genocide, incest, torture and slavery that goes on in the bible? How can you read this book and not think its just the most awful thing ever? What is wrong with you? Are you psychotic? Have you even read the Bible yet? Be honest?”
I personally don’t think these horrible acts mentioned mainly in the Old Testament are really “GODS WORK” if there is a God that is. I just think these things happened and the people at the time wrote it down and thought it must have been Gods will. People were stupid back then.
i have read the Bible quite a few times. Yes, people did bad things in the Bible but does that make other claims in the Bible irrelevant? I dont condemn murderers or rapists. Icondemn the action itself. People make mistakes, sometimes huge mistakes. this doesnt mean that God hates us. He sees all sin the same, and still forgives.
and to answer your question, No, there is nothing my child or any other person could do to make me want to torture them. i could never condemn anyone. I dont have that kind of heart. Even if a stranger murdered my child, i could not hate them. i would be absolutely distraught, but I know that God is in control of everything and that He will work His glory in the situation.
I’m sorry that you feel the way you do about this subject. But my passion in life comes from knowing that i am not perfect but through the blood of Jesus, I am in the eyes of God. I know where my happiness comes from. do you know where yours does?
P.S. thank you zeus for your rationale. I do appreciate it.
If you’ve read the bible many times, then you should know that the genocide, murder, slavery, and child sacrifice I mentioned were ORDERED by God. If you do not know this, you have not read the bible as you have claimed. And if you do know this, you are out right lying about it in your reply.
Then you admit you would not torture your children under any circumstances. Which proves you are more moral than God is. You support a God that does something that you yourself find horrible. Instead of making excuses for it, any decent person on earth should stand up and oppose this sick, demented, mothercucker who would torture his own children for eternity. And if you don’t oppose this, you are a sick motherfucker yourself.
Lastly, you ignored almost all of my points. You have provided me no evidence as I’ve asked, and I now have no choice but to begin mocking you. By ignoring all my points, you have shown that you are not really here for an exchange of information. You just want me to listen to your stupid, retarded story, and you don’t really give a shit what my reply is.
Which is exactly why you are retarded. You lack the very basic reasoning skills that children posses. You are a grown person who believes in ridiculous fairy tales written by primitive people, and you do so without any evidence. This makes you an imbecile. On top of this, you make excuses for a sick, sadistic God who commits torture, infanticide, genocide, child sacrifices, and every other horror you can imagine. This makes you a sick fuck.
So keep sucking on Jesus dick. Maybe someday he will blow that load in your mouth that you so desperately desire.
I do not need to “Prove” anything. i have not argued at all. i simply told my side of the story. God is much bigger and smarter than i am, and He doesnt need my help in protecting His name.
In the Bible, God never once orders child sacrifice, genocide, murder, or slavery. Tell me where in te Bible it makes these claims and then i will show you where you are wrong. God is a loving God, like I said. He never meant for us to be tortured for all eternity. He created hell for Satan and his folowers. Humans were created perfect but Adam and Eve fell and cursed us all. We were once made of light (just like God is) but after we sinned, we became darkness. Simple physiscs tells us that darkness cannot stand in the presence of light. Light completely obliterates darkness, not because it hates darkness. That is just its nature. This same principle applies to us. In our darkened state, it is physically impossible for us to stand in front of God. So He sent His Son to shed His blood. This blood covers us and makes us light so we may stand in His presence once again.
Once again, i need not to prove anything. the proof is all around me. look at the intricacies of genes and genetics and how well formed the earth and its companion planets are. I think that you have more faith than I, if you believe that all of this happened by chance. the belief that someone planned and created all this seems a bit easier to believe to me than some random act of chance.
But as I stated it is your choice to belive what you want. I am not getting hostile. I havent argued. I only stated my beliefs. And you never answered my question. what in this life makes you happy and keeps you from doing all these terrible things?
Romans 8:38-39 says:
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is all I need in my life; I know I have the never ending love of a savior and that satisfies all needs or wants I could ever have. I don’t need anyone to approve of my faith because in my heart; I know it’s true. I have witnessed some of the most incredible acts of love and nothing can take that away from me. Say what you want, but my God is REAL.
Well since we are quoting fairy tales like they are true:
“Jack fell down and broke his crown, and Jill came tumbling after.” (Jack and Jill 4:20)
Quoting bible verses at someone before providing a shred of evidence that the bible is true just goes to show how truly delusional you are. This is exactly what an insane person would do.
Then you tell me “I just KNOW it’s true”. How can you possibly know anything for 100% when you don’t posses 100% of the information? You are claiming to be able to do the impossible; and not only that, you are claiming to do the impossible without providing a single shred of evidence.
This is why i mock you. You talk exactly like a retarded, crazy person would. Crazy people just “know” they are right. They can’t prove it. They have no evidence. They just know!
Your god is not real. You are a pathetic grown up who believes in fairy tales without any evidence. You are like a child. Grow the fuck up already.
well mr. dusty, i believe that God has given me happiness. Happiness is all i want. I dont need money, things, or even people. sure those things are fun, but they dont last forver. Our spirits last forvever whether they be with God or in His abscence. I’m am sorry you feel this hostile toward people who have said nothing slanderous about your beliefs. not once have i criticized or ridiculed you for not proving your points to me. The anger and resent i read in you messages breaks my heart for you. You seem so determined to hate everything about Christianity and its followers. Why? What made you turn from God. What hurts you now? Why do you feel the need to call names and openly mock people who simply (and without argument) were stating their own belifs? Nothing you say or “prove” to me will take the happiness i have away from me. If you choose not to share in my joy, so be it. but I still pray that you live a full and happy life.
One thing about the bible, you have to give the authors credit for putting in verses that NO MATTER what you say otherwise the verse has retort. It’s like they new all the arguements against it and built in verses to answer to those argurments , Of course with “faith” being the final verdict in it all.
That’s because the bible is being thoroughly interpreted to fit in with the modern world. As society and science change, interpretations will also change. There are 38,000 denominations of Christianity and three mainstream religions proving the bible can be interpreted to fit anyone’s criteria. This can be said for any religious book if constantly and thoroughly studied as the bible clearly has. It’s all just a matter interpretation or OPINION.
Good point Brickhouse. Also, the bible contains so many contradictions, that they literally do have every angle covered.
I read this “debate” thirty minutes ago, and I’m still laughing….Dusty, you are the man!!!
Hi, Kim.
Thanks again for the kind word. If you make my head any bigger, I wont be able to to find hats that fit =)
Anyway, I’m glad you are enjoying my blog. Tell your friends =)
Sorry Chicago,
I think your message never got approved properly so I never saw it.
I’ll be happy to explain what happened to me and why I have such disdain for Christianity and feel the need to use mockery. That seems to be what the bulk of your comment is asking.
But to make it to where your mind will understand, I will have to explain it to you in the form of a story. I wish I could explain this in a better way, but because your mind has been conditioned from birth to understand things that are put in story form, it’s the most efficient way to explain this to you.
Imagine, if you will, that their is a make believe country called Americhrist. Now imagine that everyone in the entire country of Americhirst is mentally retarded. Every single man, woman, and child all completely, mentally retarded.
Now, it’s not their fault they are mentally retarded. They are just born that way.
And then imagine that suddenly one day about 15% of babies began to be born non-retarded, they were just normal like you or I.
Now imagine these 15% of babies who were born non-retarded grow up in a society where 85% of the people are mentally retarded. The non-retarded people, obviously, are smart enough to realize that the other 85% of people around them are totally mentally retarded.
And, while your imagining, imagine what a world which is run by 85% retards would look like. It would be polluted and violent and have arbitrary laws that are, in a word, retarded. It would be full of grown-ups who believe in fairy tales, and who are willing to kill anyone who disagrees that these fairy tales are true.
And now, Imagine, that these 15% of non-retarded people found a cure for mental retardation. They could finally improve the future of all of humanity greatly by curing the mental retardation of the other 85%.
But that 85% of retarded people enjoy being retarded. They enjoy it very much. Ignorance is totally bliss, and it doesn’t matter that they cage more of their fellow man in prison than any other country on earth, and they don’t care that they are involved in wars that kill hundreds of thousands of strangers, and they don’t even care that they are killing their host planet.
Being retarded is really fun and easy. Thinking is hard, and the retarded majority of Americhrist will fight tooth and nail to keep from being cured.
Now, imagine you were in that 15% who was not retarded. Wouldn’t you be angry? Wouldn’t you scream and cuss at the stupid retards?
Wouldn’t you yell, “You fools, can’t you see how primitive you are? Can’t you see how violent and stupid you are? Cant you see what you are doing to your host planet? What is wrong with you?”
But the retarded people won’t listen. They can not grasp these concepts. They just want you to shut your stupid mouth so they can keep on playing in their fantasy world.
This is why I’m angry and frustrated. I know it’s not your fault. You can’t help that you are retarded, but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating for those of us who are not.
Not everyone that believes/follows Jesus is crazy/stupid, though. Sure, it is easy for us to see how so very many of them always latch on to one or two things and won’t let go. (Isn’t it maddening? I mean, I consider myself a “Christian”, though I don’t like that term and yet I still find almost all other people who profess to be Christians absolutely maddening and unable of thinking in depth. I know it isn’t totally true, but I have been around so many different branches of Christianity and they all find something that they interrupt as definitely correct. They find one verse or maybe two and there it is. It has to be right and other Christians that do not believe just like them, well, those people have one or two things that THEY know is absolutely right. Yes, they are just all plain right.) Ok, sorry. Bashing and all. But I totally understand the frustration. I, personally, do find many things in ‘Christianity’ that are not totally crazy, though, actually. Does it still have a margin of faith? For sure, but really, doesn’t everything? Every possible thing, belief, idea? I find Scientology and Mormonism to be even major steps crazier. Why anyone that grew up in any kind of Christian denomination would ever jump even further into silly is beyond me.
Howdy Think,
Can you share your belief system with us? Which parts of Christianity you believe are true and why?
I guess the easiest way to start to explain the way I see things is ….I have a very hard time with absolutes in anything. (Like the way I shouldn’t have used the word ‘faith’ because I remember there was a big discussion on it, but I’ve always viewed it as very varied in meaning from what I have somewhat researched.) But back to all this, I think most Christians hold tightly to this ‘no evolution’ bit and the world having to be only a certain age. Really, though, the Bible itself does not really say all of this. “Big Bang”, God did it quick and then evolution of species continued …micro ways, macro ways, natural selection. It really isn’t so different at all, they just don’t like to think it because it doesn’t say ‘definitely, God did it.’. Of course there is all the confusion in the OT. It is hard to accept. It can be done without too many troubled brain cells, but there are questions. The NT…I personally love the Gospels, but the Paul stuff…that is where Christians start to go a bit wacky. You have to do this, no that, no none of it, but maybe that because that person said I should even though my other pastor told me no. I just think this is the nature of all humans. We are all going to fail, often without even knowing it. Then you have the whole tribulation stuff. To be a member of this church, you must believe that we (christians) are going to be swept away before any bad things happen. Gee whiz. Yeah, because bad things don’t happen to Christians ever. not now anywhere or anywhere in time. On a tangent, it reminds me a tad of saying we are ALL so wealthy here in the states because we don’t live in muddy huts like in other places. Warm places. Places where people can be that poor (though it is unfortunate) and still possibly not die like they might here in the winter. Goodness, what else is there? Well, there are interesting bits, though. Things like Jesus scolding trees. Interesting because there are those that seem to think that plants, trees etc can hear us, feel pain. Every once in awhile something pops up and I think again about how the Bible doesn’t always contradict everything else, it is many times the messengers that are stating everything as they want to see it at this moment in time.
For me, personally, I do believe in Jesus, I believe him to be Savior. But, do I think everyone else is crazy for doubting? No way. I know that this is my personal, subjective belief for many reasons. But some of them are reasons that others, for themselves, would find silly, but me, having my experience, find them to be …not silly. could I be wrong? Sure. But from everything I have read and studied and sure, even just personally…felt, I find the most answers in it. But for everything outside of Jesus as Savior, yeah….that does get very interesting in a way that is usually given to interpretation. I still think parts are true, in some way or another, but I don’t know if everything is as it should be or if I am interrupting it correctly. And of course, like everything, we can get into …who created God? was there ever really a beginning? how big is the universe? will we ever know? will all of the facts for our planet be totally different in another universe …even another galaxy somewhere perhaps? There are so many questions and I doubt that we can ever have them all answered in this life. And if there is another life than perhaps then we will figure some of it out and find out that all of our minds are very close in intelligence and we are all quite stunted in the use of brains. See, if you start questioning, it just doesn’t really stop, but that’s okay, I think. I could go on and on but I should stop, at least for tonight.
Ok, specifically, which parts of the bible do you believe are true, and why? And what do you think happens to non-christians when they die?
And please try to structure your writing into paragraphs. It is very hard to read otherwise.
Ah, paragraphs. Indeed. I prefer them, but when casually typing, I usually have to do so very quickly to save time and thus, in a stream of mess, I forgo some of the rules. It just takes me longer to reply sometimes.
I just don’t see everything or anything as clear and having all answers. I don’t see how anything could or why it even would.
I do believe Jesus to be Savior, but it isn’t necessarily very objective.
Most things I neither totally disregard or totally believe. I don’t necessarily believe the earth is young, I actually mostly do not believe it and don’t find that to be very ‘unChristian’, but I also don’t necessarily believe that earth is quite old. I don’t really know. I just read various things and find interest and possibilities but nothing definite.
I find the God of the OT to be harsh, at best, as do most people. I have often, all of my life, always realized that I prefer ‘Jesus” to God. I don’t know if that is some damning aspect, but I’m sure some Christians would tell me it is…. but alas, I have often had Christians tell me that I need to be become a Christian. It maddens me at first, but then, for some of them(not all), I realize that there are other aspects of those individuals that I do admire.
I find many things in the Bible to be strange and skeptical, but not totally impossible.
I always found the notion of hell to be troubling, but I once read in a Christian book ( I think it was “The Case For…” books) that a man of some sort(name and title escape me now) determined when really reviewing the Bible, that hell seemed to be just separation from God. That it could vary for individual and that it was just continuing the path that was started on earth- to reject God for whatever reason and thus not be with him for…ever. Something like that. Well, it made more sense to me. It didn’t answer everything (but there was more to it), but it did make me think in more possibilities.
Let’s see… what else? Well, it is really difficult for me to talk to almost anyone really because I get so many blank stares. I am sure some of it is my delivery and my lack of communication, but I know for some people it is just a lack of ability to think in too many tangents.
I wrote a comment, but I don’t see it. Did it go through? I may have let it sit for too long before being able to finish….
Ah, paragraphs. Indeed. I prefer them, but when casually typing, I usually have to do so very quickly to save time and thus, in a stream of mess, I forgo some of the rules. It just takes me longer to reply sometimes.
I just don’t see everything or anything as clear and having all answers. I don’t see how anything could or why it even would.
I do believe Jesus to be Savior, but it isn’t necessarily very objective.
Most things I neither totally disregard or totally believe. I don’t necessarily believe the earth is young, I actually mostly do not believe it and don’t find that to be very ‘unChristian’, but I also don’t necessarily believe that earth is quite old. I don’t really know. I just read various things and find interest and possibilities but nothing definite.
I find the God of the OT to be harsh, at best, as do most people. I have often, all of my life, always realized that I prefer ‘Jesus” to God. I don’t know if that is some damning aspect, but I’m sure some Christians would tell me it is…. but alas, I have often had Christians tell me that I need to be become a Christian. It maddens me at first, but then, for some of them(not all), I realize that there are other aspects of those individuals that I do admire.
I find many things in the Bible to be strange and skeptical, but not totally impossible.
I always found the notion of hell to be troubling, but I once read in a Christian book ( I think it was “The Case For…” books) that a man of some sort(name and title escape me now) determined when really reviewing the Bible, that hell seemed to be just separation from God. That it could vary for individual and that it was just continuing the path that was started on earth- to reject God for whatever reason and thus not be with him for…ever. Something like that. Well, it made more sense to me. It didn’t answer everything (but there was more to it), but it did make me think in more possibilities.
Let’s see… what else? Well, it is really difficult for me to talk to almost anyone really because I get so many blank stares. I am sure some of it is my delivery and my lack of communication, but I know for some people it is just a lack of ability to think in too many tangents.
See, here is the problem that logical people have with your particular viewpoint. If you do not have evidence, there is no reason to believe, and if you have evidence, then you no longer need faith.
Faith is not having enough evidence to believe in something, but deciding to believe in it anyway. It is the ultimate position of ignorance.
Much better, imo, to not believe in things until you have enough evidence to do so. If you don’t have enough evidence, you simply don’t believe it. Now, you hold open the possibility that it could be true, but without evidence to support it, you simply do not believe.
Believing in things without evidence is exactly the same thing as a grown person believing in fairy tales without evidence. Even you would think a person who believed the “Humpty Dumpty” story was a true story is nuts. Especially if they didn’t have any evidence to back it up.
This is how I feel about people who believe in Jesus without any evidence at all. Because I’ve looked. The evidence for him does not exist. It’s a sham.
Now if you want to hope there is an afterlife, by all means do that. Hope is fine. Hope and faith are totally different things. I hope very much that there is some kick ass afterlife that I’m not aware of where I get to be a God for eternity. But since I do not have any evidence that it is true, I simple have “hope” without having “faith”.
IMO if you are not this way, then you are retarded by very definition.
Um, I had to read this a few times because it does seem befuddled with semantics over the words faith and believe. What? Perhaps you are holding to a narrow description of certain words perhaps. I’m grasping a little.
Surely, ‘faith’ can mean belief without any proof, but not always…there are subtle differences. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
Also, isn’t belief basically the same thing?
I’m not saying that I never looked for tangible evidence of Jesus. It is there. I’m not quite sure how you are not finding any at all. It is possible that you aren’t finding any, but it just depends on where you are looking and what you mean. Many historians maintain the historical aspect of Jesus, if perhaps, it could be coming from subjective sources, though.
Unless, you mean, you can’t find any evidence for the idea of Jesus as Savior.
I believe even the oldest parts of the Bible that we have are actually of a closer time frame to the events then other historical books are to their beginnings. Of course, translation through the years is another thing. I think that the main message is still there, though, personally. I don’t even like everything handed to me cut and dry and really if you look into anything enough, you can find questions. I do tend to question everything, though, probably too much.
I spent quite awhile researching a few years ago and sure, naturally there are also thoughts and studies that question, but there is also a lot out there to stand on that I didn’t find it a blind ‘faith’.
Can you provide me with one contemporary source who wrote about Jesus? Anyone at all. Just one person who wrote about Christ in the time he lived. Anyone at all.
The evidence a man named Christ even existed to begin with is practically nil, and the proof that he performed miracles or was the son of God is completely zero. You have one loan book of fairy tales saying these things are true, with absolutely no corroborating evidence.
You would have to be just as insane to believe this as you would to believe that Zeus really existed, or Poseidon. Or any of the myriad of Gods who predate Christ.
This, for a start, has some information in general:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/
A source: Josephus.
Here is just a wikipedia link(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
Did you read that entry? Josephus wasn’t even born when Jesus supposedly died, so he is not a contemporary of Jesus.
Also his writings on Jesus are a known forgery. Read the entry you just posted.
So your very best evidence that a man named Jesus even existed is a known forgery from a man who was not even alive during the same time as Jesus? Really?
You can take that as you will. That is definitely your choice, but I think you are quick to dismiss certain things.
There is a lot of information in the Frontline articles, too, from historians. (Also about Josephus.) But again you can and will take everything as you will, that is anyone’s right, but there it doesn’t negate that there are sources out there worth considering.
I asked you for a contemporary account and you pasted a link to a non-contemporary account which is a forgery according to the very link you pasted, and then you question why I dismiss it?
This is why I laugh at people with faith.
Also, just as thought, don’t forget about absolutes and probabilities.
You state the writings are known forgeries, however, that is an exaggeration of even what the wikipedia entry states.
Josephus would have born a couple of years after Jesus death, yes, but still from a historical perspective, that is still definitely worth considering. Everything in history can be unsure.
You laugh, I have no problem with that. I think anyone with an open mind that might check those links will see that your language is being very narrow.
Well if your willing to take such paltry evidence as proof for miracles, no wonder you are a Christian. How gullible can you get.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,, and there is no possible way any reasonable human being can consider the forgeries of Josephus to be extraordinary evidence.
Which means you must be an unreasonable person, and there is no reason for me to attempt to debate with someone who is unreasonable. All I can do is mock you so that the next person who comes along and reads this will be less likely to emulate your retardation.
So, I understand you really want to believe this bullshit, and when you really want to believe in something you are willing to accept even the most ridiculous evidence for it. But this makes you retarded.
You can choose to be ignorant in your speech, but your very interpretation of what is stated in the articles is slated much more than anything in those links. They are actually moderate and impartial.
You quickly dismiss all of the information from many different historians.
I never claimed any of it was extraordinary evidence. We were talking about christianity and I showed you some stuff that could be either here nor there. I’m not yelling fire and brimstone at you. In fact, for some reason, you are jumping on me rather harshly just for sharing the stuff.
It seems you want me to bid adieu and I guess there is nothing more for us to talk about anyway. I wish you well and don’t turn into a person who is exactly the same as many Christians, just on the flip side of the arguments.
I welcome anyone to view the links you posted. Keep in mind that I asked for contemporary proof that mentions Jesus, and this is what you posted. This is the best proof you had that your belief in Jesus was real.
People can see for themselves what evidence you thought justified your faith in a magical sky god, and decide for themselves the level of your retardation.
Dusty Smith, your reasoning is awesome! What a pity that people have not studied Emperor Constantine, who created Hesus Krishna in 326CE.His intent was to have the British Druid pagan Hesus be combined wih Krishna (Christ in Sanskrit) & so eliminate wars over religion. WRONG!
Hey Dusty,
I have been reading about your opinions about Christians being retarded, and I have some questions:
What do you think about the idea of God? Do you think God can be proved? I have been debating with Christians, and they think that logic points to the idea of a creator rather than something coming from nothing. The logic follows: the universe speaks of intelligent design by the complexity and order of the universe. They mention things like how even the simplest life forms such as the bacterial flagellum and it’s “rotary engine” shows intelligent design. Or how even the proteins used for the DNA are all arranged in such a manner that it shows intelligent design, based on how its essentially a puzzle and wouldn’t function unless all the pieces were placed in a specific order, that comes specifically by intelligent thought. To them, the type of proof for the existence of God is like how a car on the road is proof that an intelligent person designed it, or how a painting is proof that their is a painter — how design requires thought. To them the idea of “intelligent creation” is the logical conclusion since we use this same logic in everyday affairs.
Also, do you think if God can be proved, that he could God have left us something to know him by, like how he is, etc? This question is what is asked of me. To a Christian, they would think the logical thing to do is to narrow down all the claims of divinity. If they can do that, then for sure they must be able to find which book is his, if any. So, after looking at all the claims, they would say the one that seems to have the most credibility is the bible. And as they examine the bible even further, they find things that points to the dependability of the bible, such as places, kings, and events of the bible that archeology and history support. And then, with no proof to discredit any claims in the bible and all the proof to support it, then they trust that it must be telling the truth since no shred of lies or forgeries are evident. You know the “innocent until proven guilty” idea in court. And that is were faith comes in.
I’m asking these things because I have a hard time justifying calling them retarded. Sure some of them are ignorant of a lot of things and just will not conceive of any possibility that they are wrong, but to them, the proof lies in creation and natural logic.
Btw, I was a christian for 3 years but recently left over issues that raised doubt like a God who by his own standard it unjust.
Also, I’m trying to consider the idea of a godless creation by a “godlike force”; like something similar to a law of gravity that might have been the genesis of creation. My thoughts on that are that it might be similar to the concept of God and how he is supposed to be this being far superior in every way to creation and that creation cannot grasp, but instead of it as a intelligent being, it’s a law or something of that matter that operates at a level far superior to the logic of intelligent design that is of creation. kinda in a way that its “law” possessed all the potential to create life, though not living itself. kind of like “everything is, what it is,” like how god is supposed to be “I am who I am.” I’m not sure about this though. I think the concept of God outweighs this idea. However, the possibility still lies. What do you think of this idea? And, what and how do you think this universe is created?
ignore the second word “God” in the question, “Also, do you think if God can be proved, that he could God have left us something to know him by, like how he is, etc?”
Hi Ryan,
Your first paragraph covers the subject known as “irreducible complexity”. This is a creation argument that, like a mousetrap, if one part is missing, the trap as a whole will not work.
This idea of “irreducible complexity” has been disproven and debunked by Scientist many different times in many different ways. I won’t go into great details, but a google search on “irreducible complexity” will give you a good idea of why this argument is incredibly flawed.
As for your second question, can god be proved. If God existed, and he wanted us to know he existed, we would. He could simply appear before us or beam the information of his existence right into our heads. So the only logical conclusion is that God either does not exist, or he does not want us to know that he exists.
The “proof” for the bible is incredibly scarce. First off, every work of fiction ever writen has real places and people in them. Spiderman took place in New York. We know New York exists. But it doesn’t make Spiderman real.
“Gone with the Wind” Takes place in Civil War torn Atlanta. We know Atlanta exists. We know the Northern soldiers attacked the town and burned it to the ground, just like they did in the movie “Gone With the Wind”. But that doesn’t mean “Gone With the Wind” is true.
Likewise, just because a few places and people mentioned in the bible might have actually existed, that doesn’t mean that the obvious fairy tales that are in it are also true. Even children can understand this very simple logic. They know that just because Harry Potter is in London, and London actually exists, that doesn’t mean Harry Potter is true.
On top of this, there is actually VERY little archeological and historical evidence backing up the Bible. People who have not researched it believe that there is tons of archeological evidence backing up the bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is very little evidence that has been found, and still plenty of other archeological evidence that suggest the Bible is not true.
There are plenty of things that discredit the Bible. Plenty of proof against it. For starters, the Bible totally contradicts itself at many points. There’s even three completely different version of the resurrection story. The single most important detail in the entire religion, the resurrection of Christ, is told three times in the bible, and all three times the details are completely different.
That’s only the tip of the iceberg of the problems in the bible. The Bible has been thoroughly debunked and discredited every step of the way, and anyone who tells you it hasn’t has never researched it. It’s that simple.
The word “retarded” means “A great lack of information”. And that’s exactly what Christians have. They have retarded their knowledge by only listening to one book written thousands of years ago by primitive idiots, instead of researching the thousands of years of hard science and evidence we have learned since then. That, imo, makes them complete retards.
There may be a God of some sort, but I’ve seen no evidence of it. Furthermore, God doesn’t add anything to the conversation. We want to know “How” and Why” things are as they are, and saying “God did it” only ends the conversation. It adds nothing.
If you want to just label everything that exists in all universes as a “God”, then fine. I got no problem with that. I don’t think it adds anything useful to the conversation, but I understand the need and want to do that.
As far as how I think the universe was created, I don’t. “Creation” implies there was nothing, and then something was created from nothing. This goes against the conservation of energy, which is one of our basic understandings in Science. Matter can not be created nor destroyed.
Instead, all the matter in existence has always existed. There was never a time where “nothing” existed. Because nothing can come from nothing. If there ever was “complete nothingness” then nothing would be here now.
We have a very primitive mindset that in the beginning there was an empty void of complete nothingness, and then all the matter in the universe suddenly sprang into existence somehow. But that is an incorrect, primitive view of the universe. There was never nothingness. There was always somethingness, and therefore creation is not necessary.
Hope that answered your questions. Lemme know if you have any others or need me to clarify.
Thanks Dusty I appreciate your comments.
I’m very interested in the information you just said. Could you point me to some more places I can start reading on?
I’ve noticed that all the information Christians quote at people are all from biased sources. And what ticks me off is that since their faith teaches that they have the truth, they then automatically deal with the other sources that aren’t for Christianity with an incredibly biased slant. It’s absolutely frustrating when the only thing they can say at the end of their paragraph, or at the end of their speech to you is, “you’re still welcomed back to the truth,” and yet the conversation is about “show me your proof.”
I was heavily influenced by a fundamental group of Christians that believes in 7 day creation. So it’s pretty much ingrained in me in how they think and I need to basically reteach myself how to view “evidences” with a more broader view. They have all kinds of defenses for all the scientific evidences. And they are convinced in their mind that all scientific evidences that are said to disprove the bible is because these people don’t want accountability and they are ignoring the obvious truth. One site called bible.ca is one example of the information that “my group” uses. It talks about fallacies of scientific data, inconsistencies of Darwin’s theories and other stuff like “evidences for the flood.”
Also, on a side note, have you heard of the astro-world/astroprojection? What do you think about that? Most of the people who delve into that stuff are often times sourced from a cultish belief, but from my experiences there seems to be something more to it.