Not a week goes by where I’m not asked by a Christian, “What happened to you to make you hate God so much? Why are you so angry at Christians?” So let me just answer this question once and for all, and the next time anyone asks , I can just forward them to this blog entry.
In order to make it so the mind of a Christian can understand, I will have to explain it in the form of a story. I wish I could explain this in a better way, but because the minds of Christians have been conditioned from birth to understand things that are put in story form, it’s the most efficient way to explain this to you.
So here goes.
Once upon a time, there was a vast country called Americhrist. Now, it just so happened, that every single person in the entire country of Americhrist was mentally retarded. Every single man, woman, and child all completely, mentally retarded.
- Welcome to Americhrist
Now, it was not their fault they were mentally retarded. They were just born that way. They couldn’t help it any more than someone who was born left handed could help it. Retardation was just normal.
Then, suddenly, one day in the land of Americhrist, about 15% of all the babies began to be born non-retarded. 15% were born with what you and I would call a “normal” level of intelligence .
Now imagine the 15% of babies who were born non-retarded growing up in a society where 85% of the people are mentally retarded. The non-retarded people, obviously, are smart enough to realize that the other 85% of the people around them are totally mentally retarded.
And, while you’re imagining, imagine what a world which is run by the 85% retards would look like. It would be polluted and violent and have arbitrary laws that are, in a word, retarded. It would be full of grown-ups who believe in fairy tales, and who are willing to kill anyone who disagrees that these fairy tales are true.
Now, imagine that the 15% non-retarded people found a cure for mental retardation. They could finally improve the future of all of humanity greatly by curing the mental retardation of the other 85%.
Only thing is, the 85% retarded people enjoy being retarded. They enjoy it very much. Ignorance is total bliss, and it doesn’t matter that they cage more of their fellow man in prison than any other country on earth; they don’t care that they are involved in wars that kill hundreds of thousands of strangers; and they don’t even care that they are killing their host planet.
Being retarded is really fun and easy. Thinking is hard, and the retarded majority of Americhrist will fight tooth and nail to keep from being cured.
Now, imagine you were in that 15% who were not retarded. Wouldn’t you be angry? Wouldn’t you scream and cuss at the stupid retards?
Wouldn’t you yell, “You fools, can’t you see how primitive you are? Can’t you see how violent and stupid you are? Can’t you see what you are doing to your host planet? What is wrong with you?”
But the retarded people won’t listen. They cannot grasp these concepts. They just want you to shut your stupid mouth so they can keep on playing in their fantasy world.
This is why I’m angry and frustrated. I know it’s not your fault. You can’t help that you are retarded, but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating for those of us who are not.
Americhrist is not just a make believe place.
Hey Bro,
What if real Christianity and religion weren’t the same thing? Would you be interested in hearing about that? Like you I think religion is an awful thing but because of the way the church has confused the issue it’s hard for real Christianity to get a voice.
I would be interesting on hearing evidence no matter what it supported. I don’t care what the truth is, I just want to know. If you have some evidence that the “real Christianity” is true, I’d be happy to hear it.
However, I have studied this subject more extensively than most preachers have. If the evidence exists, I have yet to find it in my thousands of hours of research.
However, I am TOTALLY open minded. If you have evidence to add that I have never heard before, I sincerely want to know.
I would love to hear this difference between “Real Christianity” and religion. Please, please explain!
Honestly, you are giving atheists a bad name. It’s embarrassing. In fact, I wonder if you are actually a Christian apologetic. Unless, that is what you want people to wonder.
You’re name-calling is much worse than the others and yet some of your like-minded folk call out others for name-calling. You should really brush up on your knowledge of science and history. It seems apparent that you are unable to debate actual subjects.
Usually, I would feel bad saying these things to people, especially those that are, supposedly, trying to discourage mindless drones, but I’m hoping your style does not catch on because all it does is grab mindless drones from religion and place them in other categories. Of course, that is what the majority of people are anyway, so you shouldn’t have a problem finding people to follow your shenanigans.
Most people jump from one mindset to another, but they are still the same. From what I have read on your page, you have probably always been exactly this same way no matter what you held to be truth.
-
Darrell Morgan
Hi Darrell,
Thank you for your opinion. I obviously disagree. If it is not obvious to you by now that reasoned debate and education is not an effective tool to use on Christians, then clearly you have not talked to many of them. Nor do you seem to be aware of the tactics used by nearly every single opinion maker on earth. These tactics are effective, and I’m sorry if you don’t like them. I find them distasteful as well, but I can’t just ignore their obvious results.
You would think that after America’s actions led to the deaths of more then 500,000 Iraqis, the Atheist would stop being such pussies and actually start doing whatever it takes to ensure this bullshit stop as quickly as possible; and it does seem like the majority of atheist I’ve talked to are ready to actually stop being pussies.
But I have discovered that a small minority are still stuck with this politically correct, pussy mindset where they are more worried about saying the word “retard” than they are about the babies this country bombs.
I however will use any peaceful means necessary to wipe out this bullshit as quickly as I possibly can. If you don’t like my methods, please start your own blog, make your own videos, and then let me know how effective your methods are.
This shit has strawman written all over it.
Hello Eddie and welcome,
It’s possible you are right, however when you just leave hit and run comments and don’t explain your positions, there is no way for anyone to know for sure.
So feel free to flush out your comment a bit so we can all see if you have a valid point or not.
P.S. “Eddie” WordPress tracks I.P. addresses.
“What if real Christianity and religion weren’t the same thing?”
Wha… HUH? Please explain that, it makes no sense.
Darrell Morgan, I recommend that you read the rest of Dusty’s posts here before writing him off as a mindless drone. Also, where do you get off criticizing Dusty for his understanding of science and history, on a post that contains no references to either, but a simple allegorical explanation of why he can’t stand Christian thought? If you have a criticism to make on the basis of science or history, I recommend that you leave your comments on one of his posts that actually deals with one of those two topics.
“What if real Christianity and religion weren’t the same thing?”
I think what the poster could possibly mean by this is what if people followed the words of christ and believed him and was inspired by him, but did not go to church , did not practice religious rituals and did not belong to any religiouis organization. You someone whom is more just a spiritual person but doesn’t participate in organized religion.
However I pretty much find this whole article flawed. Once again dusty over inflates and exxagerates the role of christianity in the current world crisis. Like I said before, If everyone was doing what Christ did or said , we would all be living like the Amish.
“Now, it was not their fault they were mentally retarded. They were just born that way. They couldn’t help it any more than someone who was born left handed could help it. Retardation was just normal.”
Last I checked religion is a belief system not a predetermined biological trait. Unlke retardation.
“Then, suddenly, one day in the land of Americhrist, about 15% of all the babies began to be born non-retarded. 15% were born with what you and I would call a “normal” level of intelligence .’
Religion is a matter of faith , not intelligence. Im sure you will find many people of faith that have higher IQ’s and with more advanced degrees than a lot of these athiest running around.
“It would be polluted and violent and have arbitrary laws that are, in a word, retarded. It would be full of grown-ups who believe in fairy tales, and who are willing to kill anyone who disagrees that these fairy tales are true.”
What violent and arbitrary laws? And where is this study that says that Christians are willing to kill anyone who disagrees with their faith? Yeah the occasional nut job who kills abortion doctors. Those types are the exception not the norm.
“Now, imagine that the 15% non-retarded people found a cure for mental retardation. They could finally improve the future of all of humanity greatly by curing the mental retardation of the other 85%.”
Oh so there is a cure for faith now? The only cure to having faith is seeing the proof of what they have faith in, then their faith ends and their knowing begins.
“and it doesn’t matter that they cage more of their fellow man in prison than any other country on earth”
America imprisons more people because of the drug laws , and the fact that our government supplies the drugs to ensure a vibrant criminal justice industry. Prison Gaurd Union is the most powerful Union in the USA. It’s about money not religion.
” Can’t you see what you are doing to your host planet? What is wrong with you?””
Agreed we are polluting our planet. Perhaps we should all live like the Amish.
After having read all of the above posts, I’m going to have to once again award this debate to Dusty.
Darrell, I for one am not embarrassed by Dusty’s blog posts. I think he is a shining light for other atheists who have been far too scared and apathetic for far too long. Darrell Morgan, history will not remember your name. You are just one more sheep in a very large flock of retarded livestock. America is now swirling around in the toilet largely because there are not enough men like Dusty living in that once glorious nation prepared to stand up and speak the truth. There’s a fairly good chance I’ll name my first born after him.
To Killarny,
Very well written as was your other posts. You are an excellent writer. I need to visit your blog more often. http://killarny.org/ for anyone interesting.
To Xeus,
I guess your “Z” key is broken or maybe you got tired trolling under other fake names, but we’ve been through this. I fully understand that you don’t understand that the very foundation of people beliefs can not be separated from how they run their government.
It’s not that you can’t understand this concept, it’s just that you don’t want to agree with me. so you will hold an obvious ridiculous position just to keep from agreeing with me. That’s cool
However I love how you ask me what laws are arbitrary and then you go and list some of them yourself. Once again proving you don’t really disagree with me, you just want to argue.
To Robert,
Thanks for the backup. I’m not sure if “Darrell really is an Atheist or just a Christian trolling my blog. Either way, I’m sure I’m going to hear this complaint from real atheist from time to time. I’m glad that there are other non-pussy atheist out there who see it the same way I do.
And the great thing about the name “Dusty” is that it works regardless of whether you have a boy or a girl as your first born!
Dusty,
So you want to present yourself like an Ann Coulter? Manipulating the feeble-minded and catering to like-minded bullies.
Killarny and Dusty,
You are nit-picking others, yet support Dusty’s behavior. It is inconsistent.
I have read all of his blogs. I don’t disagree with him in theory, it is his delivery. He won’t dive into any depths, he resorts to name-calling all the time, he mocks information that isn’t even from Christian sources. It is similar to Christians mocking scientists the way that Dusty has mocked some sources, such as historians.
It seems obvious Dusty has always been this way. What is your actual story, Dusty? Were you a Christian leader, teacher?
It also seems obvious that he is in the heart of the Christian right territories.
Robert,
It is not really important who is remembered; it is how you are remembered that is important.
And there are many, many others of this caliber out there. I like to think they are mostly right-wing conspirators since our country is inundated with them, but it is not always so.
Hi Darrell,
Thanks for coming back. Yes, I have no problem presenting myself like Ann Coulter, or Bill O’Reilly, or Rachelle Maddow, or Keith Oberman. All these people use the exact same tactics. Now you might not see that Keith Oberman’s tactics are very similar to Anna Coulter’s tactics, but that’s only because you are on his side of it.
This mocking and belittling goes on with practically every opinion maker in the world, and for very good reason. It’s because these tactics are very effective. Ann Coulter doesn’t behave that way because she is a psycho bitch. She behaves that way because it makes her millions of dollars. She understands the effectiveness of those tactics. Exactly like Keith Oberman and Rachel Maddow do.
Then you say you have read all my blogs and do not disagree with my theories, but before you said I “should brush up” on my knowledge of Science and history. So this seems to be a reversal from you.
Then you go on, once again, to say you don’t like my tactics; and once again, I’d rather use tactics that are disdainful but work, then use tactics that are nicer but don’t work.
As for my story, I was never a christian leader or teacher, but I was a Christian for 32 years. And I do know an awful lot about it.
Anyhow, I understand why you feel as you do. I’m just much more radical than you are. I think being pussy, politically correct wimps is exactly the reason atheist still only have 15% of the population. Even though we have the truth on our side, and all the science, and most of the truly smart people, we still only manage to pick up 15% of the population.
IMO the reason for this is because of pussy atheist who have not done whatever it peacefully takes to ensure their memes are spread properly through out the population. Some of us have realized this and are working very hard to rectify it.
Dusty,
All of those people, for the most part, are unsavory. Being close-minded only leads cattle, and not free-thinkers. But, you are right in one regard, that is, unfortunately, what most people need or want no matter what their views.
It’s disgusting and limiting no matter where it is found. No one has all the answers.
Controlling others, exaggerating, and generalizing are pathetic tools. Conceptual thoughts are the key to evolving our thoughts.
I don’t disagree with you in theory, in general, but once you begin, or refuse, to debate ideas and information, that is where we differ. You don’t seem to have a broad knowledge of how the subjects presented actually work. When someone presents you with something other than bible verses or jargon, you immediately flee in a slur of unreasonable name-calling.
The main point I am taking from all of this discourse is that atheists need to stop being apologetic because they might offend. But most atheists do think that religion is illogical, not if idiotic. Why should we keep sitting on our hands?
Most atheists think that people that are following an idiotic belief system are acting like idiots. The religious person might be extremely intelligent, but when they act on those inane beliefs then they should be called out for it.
We know and would tell a child that eating lead paint chips that it will make them mentally retard. We cannot make the child stop eating, but we don’t have keep silent about it.
Being silent has tucked us into a corner as marginalized group. It is time to speak out, the religion is idiotic and to be religious is idiotic. Don’t like it, then please, please, please come and debate the points. We welcome the discussion.
No I completely understand , I just disagree and I think your premise is based on hyperbole and misguided opinions. You have failed to convince me that any of your claims are accurate. Just sounds like someone looking for something to be pissed about to me. You never answer the Amish question do you? Because you know they truly represent what a “Christian” is really supposed to be. And all the people out there doing all these horrible things in the world can’t be acting as christians if the Amish is our best example.
The very people who accuse of destroying the world do it for money , greed , power , corruption . None of are Christian values. It’s complete Nonsense.
now go pretend to be some stooge backing you up. Too bad we can’t see the ip’s
Hey, Dusty, your answer to Darrell above sounded eerily similar to something I wrote a while back, so I thought I’d include a link here, since only about 8 people read mine.
http://philosophidian.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-being-abrasive-about-atheism.html
Kaa, I just read your article. You did an excellent job in putting the discussion in a perspective.
I just recently read a study on how the atheist movement took the language of the gay movement because of their similarities.
I would like to see more strong unapologetic voices about atheism instead of the usual four or five (especially Dawkins and Hitchens).
Hey Dusty check out this website http://www.control-z.com/pgs/magthink.html
I dont hate Wotan because that man created idea doesn’t exist.
But, the xhristian godtards merely believe their man created myths and fantasies because they have the weight of time and the power of murder, rape , torture and theft behind them.
Hi all,
Sorry for the late reply. I’ve been out of town for a few days.
To Darrell,
It doesn’t seem like we disagree on much. You don’t disagree with my conclusions or the fact that these tactics work. We both agree they are disdainful.
You say I don’t debate, but in my first post to practically every Christian who has come here I have gone through there first post line by line and dissected it. It is only when they come back and ignore every words I say that I begin the mocking. There is no need to debate people who really don’t want to debate. I have debated MANY Christians. This isn’t my first time to the dance. I know the routine.
To RTPT,
Well put. You get it. The age of the apathetic atheist must end. It’s embarrassing that we have the truth on our side, all the science, and most of the smart people, and yet we only have 15% of the population. If that does not prove to you that atheist tactics are severely lacking, nothing will. Thank you for you input on this.
Too Kaa,
Excellent article and eerily similar to what I’ve been saying. I agree totally, obviously. I’m trying to lead by example here and putting real life persona behind it. I understand how dangerous what I’m doing is, especially where I live, but there just comes a time when we have to stop being pussies and stand up for ourselves.
I really focus heavily on the best way to spread memes, which is the sole reason I have chosen the tactics I have. It did not come rashly. I experimented, I observed, and I sincerely believe these tactics are the way to go.
I’m glad to see their are other, obvious intelligent, people out there who feel the same.
To Th’athiest,
Good looking site, I will check it out in greater detail tonight.
To Grung,
Agreed, Christians have spread this bullshit by the sword, which makes it very hard for us peaceful types to destroy it without using violence. But it can be done. Christianity is already dead, it just doesn’t know it yet.
Dusty,
In your thread “What the hell is wrong with black people?” you refused to really talk to some guy who was articulating himself in a manner that probably would have stemmed some actually intellectually stimulating conversations and then in your “Proof test of the Bible’ you became totally unreasonable to some bloke who was barely even Christian and gave you sources from historians. All of this playing the part of a fool points to fear or tactics to keep others from actually hearing any potential arguments.
Crowd psychology, group think, the thought police: all things that come to mind when viewing your attempts to control.
Of course, must we bring up the mentality of Hitler? How about Lenin? The Society of the Godless?
A compulsion to eradicate Christianity, an absence to permit existentialist thought, a penchant for spinning, hyperbole, strict definitions and evasive tactics all point to militant atheism and stifling of freethinking.
I’ll come back to see if the negativity ever subsides, but I hope to quell my rubber-necking and increasing depression.
You have to understand, my intention is not to sit here and debate with people all day. That does not get your memes spread. That doesn’t get people interested enough to read your words.
My job here is to foremost be entertaining so that people actually pay attention to what I say, and come back for more. Then I piggyback the atheist message on the back of that. This is why all the opinion makers use these tactics. They don’t do these things because they are ineffective. They do them because they work.
If you want to call me a militant atheist, I’m okay with that. I don’t think the label of closed minded fits, but I’ve got my opinion and you’re welcome to yours.
Come back any time, and if you decide to start your own blog and actually start doing something for the cause, let me know. I’d like to see how many folks check it out.
I think the approach you are taking is very similiar to the same approach christians take. Christians are high and mighty and believe any non beleive is destined for hell. They look down on non believers as lesser people because they don’t have God in their lives. They ridicule and scorn non believers and instituionalize the isolation from the rest of society. Thinking they are endowed with wisdom that you athiest and non believers are lacking.
In the same way Dusty has stooped down to their very same level and chosen to employ the very same tactics and methods that the christians have been using for 2 thousand years.
I would think that if your going to beat something you use a tactic or method that is superior and above the methods of your enemy.
As far as Im concerned your pious “holyer than thou” attitude is just a chip off the block . You are no better than they are for isolating yourselves from everyone and sitting on your high horse thinking you know it all.
also i might add that the main reason I think you do not care to engage in debate is that there is no real logical arguement to convince someone thier god does not exist. Sure you can attack the source of their beliefs and attack their faith as superstision but in the end there is no substance in any debate that is aimed at proving the non existance of God. The debate would be futile on both sides since there is no evidence for or against.
It all boils down to a matter of belief on both sides. Or in my case a lack of belief in anything.
You see I don’t believe in God. I am open to the possibility . Also I don’t believe that people that have faith are retarded , of course I am open to the possibility that thier faith is misguided and pointless. Either way is possible to me.
Xeus,
It’s clear you will never get tired repeating the same thing over and over. But unlike you, I do get tired of answer this same shit to you repeatedly. There isn’t a sentence here that you have not said before at least in some form. And there’s not a point here that you’ve made that I have not addressed numerous times.
So what is left to do other than to just assume you are trolling and ignore you? You don’t like my blog. Fine I get it. Are you gonna come here every single day and type the same shit letting me know it? What is your point in doing that?
It’s just getting very boring. My job is to be entertaining, and when you come here repeating the same exact thing over and over, it is very boring. No one wants to read the same shit over and over.
So either come up with something new to say, or create your own blog and type the same 3 ideas over and over again every day and let me know how many people show up to read it.
Dusty,
Excellent blog, as always. I’ve been spreading the word to all my friends, atheist or otherwise, to watch your video as well.
Darrell,
Dusty is right. Debate and reasoning do not work. I “deconverted” from Christianity two months ago, so what actually worked is still very fresh on my mind. Here’s what got me thinking that maybe the atheists were right:
I had been debating with this atheist online for a couple of weeks. Though he was fully able to refute everything I brought up as evidence, my faith never wavered. I thought, as all Christians do, that he was misled by Satan.
He asked me if I actually believed that my god was answering my prayers and I told him this story, “One day I was at work, and my best friend and I were talking badly about this girl that worked in another section of the plant. Later that day, I was having trouble on my machine because the product was not running correctly. I was getting very frustrated and prayed, ‘Lord, a little help here!’ Ten minutes later, the girl I’d been gossiping about earlier that day came to help me on my machine, though she had never done so before and was not aware of the negative feelings I had for her. I instantly KNEW god was talking to me. I looked up and said, ‘Yeah, Lord, I know.’ This girl and I have been pretty good friends ever since.”
When I finished telling him this story, he said, “I’m glad God was helping you make friends at work while allowing half the world to live in starvation and utter poverty and filth.” I knew instantly that he was right. That’s when my doubt began…not through our friendly debate, but through his sarcastic mocking of how silly and self-centered my beliefs were.
I then began asking him questions about how the world and the universe could be possible without God. I learned about evolution, the big bang, and abiogenesis. Seeing as I live in the South, I had little to no knowledge of these concepts. When I finally admitted that god was not possible and that religion was stupid and corrupt, my mind opened in a way I could have never predicted.
I am undescribably grateful to this atheist’s open mockery of my beliefs, because now I am free from the intellectual slavery that is religion…my retardation has been cured!
In short, Dusty’s method works…I am evidence of this. Your method of politically-correct debate does not….sorry to disappoint.
Hey Kim,
Welcome back. Good story. Thank you for sharing it. I know exactly what you mean about the amazing feeling you get when your mind opens up. It’s like suddenly this small world you were living in explodes into a giant universe of wonder.
At times it scares the crap out of me, because when you are totally open minded, there’s no telling what you will find out. I keep wondering what “belief” I have will be totally shattered next.
Anyway, your story is a perfect example. My story is similar. I believed 100% in the Bible and I would debate with Science professors in public forums about how evolution was a satanic lie. I had Kent Hovind’s theories memorized and I would spout them as gospel.
It wasn’t until people stopped engaging me in reasonable debate and began mocking me that I actually got pissed off enough to research stuff for myself and “try to prove them wrong.”
If we can just get people to this stage where they start actively looking to prove us wrong, then many of them will find exactly what we have found. The evidence will change them. It is our job to get them to the place where they actually want to know what the evidence is. And in my observation, there is no better way to get someone to this place than by mocking them.
If anyone else has better results that I can personally observe, as with all things, I’m all ears.
Dusty,
This is my first time on ur site…..where did you answer Xeus questions? I am one of ur fans on youtube, but this guy Xeus seems to be making sence to me…….where can I read ur responds to his questions?
Hey Sort,
The points brought up by Xeus have been brought up by him many times throughout my blog. I know its a lot to read, but they are interspersed throughout all the blog entries.
If you have a specific question I would be happy to answer it for you to the best of my ability.
Well, it seems all the current studies are correct: retardation cannot be cured.
Dusty, I have to say that was entertaining. I realize that might not have been you and that there might really be a Kim who is a sweet person, so I do apologize for using you as an example in all of this insanity.
But, that was weak, a little scary, and screamed born-again.
Well there really is a Kim. So send your apologies to her.
And, let me just say once and for all, it is going to become very boring if every time someone comes here and posts, someone else comes along and accuses me of faking it.
So for the record, if I have something to say it will have my name on it. I am not a coward who makes up fake names or goes anonymous (anymore). I actually stand behind the shit I say.
Click on the “about” button above. Yep, that’s me. See that book mentioned there. Yep, I wrote that piece of shit. You know that song I posted in the “Presidential Obama” blog post? Yep, that’s me singing. See that facebook link there in the bottom of the right sidebar? That’s my facebook page. See that twitter link? That’s my twitter.
I don’t hide who I am because I am not ashamed of it.
Darrell,
Oh dear. I’m afraid you are mistaken.
Name: Kimberly Diane Liles
Location: Andalusia, AL 36420
Email: kimberly_liles@yahoo.com (feel FREE to email me)
Phone: 334-343-4563 (Why not? Phone numbers can be changed if necessary.)
You can also find me in Yahoo Answers in Religion & Spirituality under the name “Fully Alive”, which is linked to my profile with name and photo (brunette cutie that I am, I don’t need an “avatar”.) In fact, you can see from my answers that I was a Christian when I started answering and later was not!
You can also see my profile on youtube. On Dusty’s channel, after I watched his first video (which was AWESOME), I posted a comment. I use my real name on youtube and my photo. I’m sure you could take it from there. (Sorry, no video yet. I was working on one, and was almost finished, and my hard drive crashed on me.
Lost everything, but I’m going to try to get one posted by the end of July.)
I hope you don’t get from this that I am angry. I am not. But, you probably need solid evidence to disprove this suspicion before you can discard it. Hope this helps.
Thank you for calling me “sweet” though. I like compliments! XOXOX
Kim
Kim -
Wow, that’s the best pwnage on a blog that I’ve come across yet. Kudos! :]
Nhu
To Kim,
I guess that settles that now doesn’t it? Well played.
To Darrell
Are you feeling as forthcoming about who you really are?
Dear Kim,
That is all very interesting, but it was barely the point of my post.
That was just a passing possibility.
I’m playing Dusty’s game of ‘retardation’. It obviously resides in many people.
And Dusty obviously always has to make everyone think like him. This is evident even recently from comments about his past in his first reply to you and in his book from the past.
My intent is to always play the ‘devil’s advocate’, so to speak. Every group, if we must give labels, needs some way to prevent all the stagnation.
Hey I thought I was playing the devils advocate? You can’t get any more devil’s advocate than the shit I say. Don’t try to steal my job!
Darrell,
Okay. I understand…a protagonist/antagonist exchange (though which one is which is really hard to tell as Dusty seemingly is an antagonist by nature). Luv you guys!
Here’s how I see it: Activism is the key.
How does social change come about? By activism (and not just the picket sign variety). Abolishing slavery, transforming communism, civil rights, women’s liberation, gay acceptance, even religious freedom….all changed through activism. Activism actually means “action for change.”
I’m sure that since the dawn of faith, there have always been atheists….only they said nothing. Why? Because they would have been killed or worse! (Religion sucks like that.) Now that we are in an age of advanced science, technology, and moral wealth (e.g. social equality, stable economic and political systems, etc), overcoming religious dogma should be easy!
But it’s not. This is due to several reasons:
1. People of faith are afraid of their gods, afraid of social rejection, and afraid of standing alone.
2. People of faith are addicted to their religious candy (such as forgiveness of mistakes, divine love and protection, and a pleasant afterlife…giving up the concept of heaven and accepting a finite life is scary).
3. People of faith do not fully realize that there are better options.
I was mastered by all three. I was afraid of god’s wrath and “untimely death”. I was terrified of losing my family and friends. I absolutely HATED the thought of being alone and feeling like I’m a freak. I loved the concept of god forgiving my sins, I NEEDED god’s love and protection (especially in my childhood…which was pretty wretched), and heaven over hell was a no-brainer choice. I never knew what an atheist was until it was much too late. And since none were around, I was surrounded by Christians. How could everybody be wrong? (Hell, I didn’t even think that, truly, because it would have been like thinking, “How could everybody be wrong about electricity?”) Christianity was a choice about as much as my heart beating was a choice.
Atheism is on the rise. Why? Because of activism. Activists, like Dusty, who are bound and determined to do what they must, short of violence, to change things and bring about awareness. Activists, like my atheist friend who basically grabbed my hand and snatched me from the train of religion that is headed nowhere, who are trying to stop the rape that science and progress endures for no purpose.
Nothing will change as long as those who have the ability to make things happen (by reading your posts, I think you are one of them) say and do little because they don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. Yes, being a “meanie” is not very fun…but without these “meanies”, women’s rights, civil rights, and the very freedom you have to post your reply, would not exist.
Kim
Kim,
We need to be careful in our quest to exterminate Christianity.
Should some people be reached, like you, who had not thought beyond their own walls? Of course. But you need to continue to learn and look at many levels. From your story earlier it would seem that you were not able to look at the situation on more than one note. For someone to say something so common to you and yet have it change your mind shows that you indeed must have been in a very closed section of Christianity. In fact, a lot of what Dusty does on here is really directed to those people, though, all of a religion are lumped in together.
When have Christians in history really persecuted atheists as a whole? I don’t know of many times, except for individual cases, but does anyone have any insight? Sure, there is discrimination in this country. Islamic countries, yes, thy do lumps us in with religions.
But, we still have religious intolerance and even persecution in the world. China? And what is China? A communist, atheist government.
My point is that while Christians have not really persecuted atheists as an entity, the reverse has often been true, no matter how you want to slice it or reason it away. And that in turn, usually turns more people to Christianity. Not the petty Christianity that is always shoving things in our faces and trying to control everyone’s personal actions, but the long-suffering version of Christianity.
What I am trying to do is keep people from taking all of this one step further. It may seem like a big step to all of us nice people out there, but in reality, it does not take many people very much to moved to absurd decisions.
Yes, I am glad we are able to speak our minds and I’m glad that others still can, too.
Okay, first of all, saying Christians don’t persecute atheist as a whole is just hogwash. I have a hard time believing you are really an atheist now. Do you have a blog or a facebook page or anything that can verify who you really are? After reading what you wrote I’ am beginning to believe you are really a Christian trolling as an atheist.
So if you really are who you say you are, then there should be some record of yourself from somewhere on the internet that verifies you really are atheist Darrell Morgan. Otherwise I’m gong to have to call bullshit.
If I’m wrong I’ll be the first one to admit it.
Dusty,
I have no idea if there is record of me on groups that I have visited, and no, I do not have a website. At least not yet. I do have a Facebook and an email with it, but what does that prove?
Of course, the next place I visit, I now know that I can ‘prove’ my atheism by directing them to your website.
So, for me to say atheists have not really been persecuted makes me a Christian?
Again with the close-minded remarks.
Seriously, show me where we have really been persecuted in history. Or go do your research and then tell me what you find.
Just because people have been persecuted doesn’t make them right, but it does show a need to eradicate hate and not religion or views on life.
Anybody can be something other than what they claim, even you. You are so outrageous that I still think it is possible that you are a Christian apologist trying to make us all look bad.
Why don’t you do that instead of ‘calling me out’? Are you ‘pwning” me, too?
The 2006 University of Minnesota study made a lot news about its revelation of how atheists are the most despised minority in America. Polls like this have been done many times and illustrate just how hated atheist are by the American Christian majority. They would rather vote for ANYONE else other than an atheist. Not sure how a fellow atheist could not possibly be aware of this.
But anyway, maybe you are an atheist, maybe not. Whats your facebook? Let’s be friends =)
However, if you really are an atheist, then we should not be fighting amongst ourselves. If you don’t like my tactics, lead by example and show me how it should be done. Believe me, if you show me a more effective way, I’ll jump all over it.
And if you cant, or won’t, why should I listen to you?
Dusty, that is not really persecution; it is discrimination. It’s still not right and I do hate many of the ways I often feel that I am scorned.
But persecution, let’s not make light of actual persecution, even though any form of non-acceptance should not happen.
I am trying to show you that your ways can corrupt people, but I know that you do not believe me. However, history does show us differently. That is what I am really trying to get across.
I know from talking to you for a while that even though you do use bigoted language, I think your purpose is to help people. You felt really taken advantage of by your religious upbringing. I do not have that to contend with and that is why I think we are seeing these things so differently.
I say, though, be careful how you lead others. And be careful how full of hate that you let yourself become.
Maybe I should try something more. I’ve never really been a leader; I’ve always seen it as a dangerous position to hold that could quickly become twisted. I usually observe and like I said before, play the devil’s advocate for what I view to be correct.
Hey Darrell,
I appreciate your advice. And I’m totally open to new information.
It’s just, like i said, these tactics work. In fact, I dare say that if I had not used these tactics, you would not be here right now talking to me.
It doesn’t matter how brilliant what you say is, if no one listens to you, no one is ever going to hear it.
The most important thing is to make people pay attention first of all. Sadly, the message is secondary to that.
But, like I said, show me a better way and I’ll adopt it. If you can’t, all I can do is continue to do what I have personally observed works. I don’t think I can be faulted for this logic.
And you know, at least I’m doing something. I see a sick, dying planet full of delusional people standing idly by as it burns to the ground. I wonder why others that see the same thing I am seeing don’t at least try something. Anything at all. Just don’t sit there and do nothing.
Not that what I’m doing is so great or anything. But at least I’m trying.
Darrell,
First, let’s get out of the way the “pwn” thing. That was certainly not my intent, and I do not feel like I did. Please do not think that of me.
Secondly, no, we cannot show you in history where groups of atheists were persecuted. I can give you individual examples of people executed for atheism (e.g. Socrates, Etienne Dolet, Giulio Cesare, Kazimierz Lyszczynski, Gottfried Valer, Jordan Brunus). Maybe they just should’ve kept their mouths shut, eh?
Why haven’t groups of atheists been persecuted? Because these groups didn’t exist! That would have been suicide. That’s like asking why weren’t Protestant churches persecuted prior to the 16th century. Sure, there were probably a scattered few who disagreed with catholicism, but they didn’t have churches.
But I digress…you think we should be careful when trying to exterminate Christianity lest we push people toward it. I understand what you are saying…but I do not see this happening. If you visit Yahoo Answers Religioun & Spirituality (and these people are ruthless!) and ask how many people have converted to Christianity because of Y!A, you will only get answers from people who have de-converted from Christianity. (This question is asked literally EVERY DAY!!) You have to wonder why.
You think Christians are giving us a break? Uh-uh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-YABlYIvUE
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Al7DESv8JuQxcyUaSc5Pbe_ty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20090609142436AAfMHBZ&show=7#profile-info-pxgIsS0Maa
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgeSEdBXBeVCZP_XkIMNIBnty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20090608012335AA6bITA&show=7#profile-info-lOjuHbxCaa
There’s SO much more where that came from.
And yes, I live in the Bible Belt. I got Christians coming out my ears! 99% of my family, friends, neighbors, collegues, and acquaintances are Christian (or Mormon or JW…but they think themselves Christians anyway). Once a week, I have JWs knocking on my door…I always accept their literature and thank them, but tell them that I am an atheist. I will not “attack” them outside the free-speech arena unless they are attacking me first.
I have a two-year-old son, whom I love more than I could ever love myself. I see the world, this Christian-infested area, that I am giving to my baby, where thinking for yourself and making choices based on facts is extremely difficult to do. I will do everything that I can to change that, or I will encourage my son to leave here, thus leave me, once he is grown.
These Christians online are not like our grandparents…they know full well what they are getting into. Do not waste your pity on them…they are giving as good as they get!
Respectfully,
Kim
To Kim,
I’m very impressed with your thorough and insightful responses. Once again, your a poster who I feel like I should be reading your blog instead of the other way around.
To Darrell,
Your argument that we are not persecuted is a silly one, imo. We are the most despised minority in the country. Despising someone IS persecuting them. Just because they are not hanging us up in the streets does not mean we are not persecuted. It’s really a ridiculous argument.
And your other argument that these tactics push people towards Christianity also holds no water at all. Can you provide a single example of a person who said they were driven to Christianity because of negative atheists? I’d be surprised if you could produce a single one, much less several real life examples of this.
So it is very hard for me to believe you when you are telling me things that go against what I have personally observed without providing me a shred of evidence for your claims. That’s what a Christian would do.
I’m open minded, but where is the beef?
Kim,
Those are some good examples of people killed for atheism. It is difficult when it is on an individual basis because there were people lumped into a label of atheism who were actually religious in some way. The further back you go, the more difficult it is to determine, as is true of most historical events and claims.
It is possible that more people just didn’t voice their opinions, it would be interesting to research that some more. I’ve studied a lot of history and not come across a lot, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t out there somewhere.
But, no, I think that anyone should be able to voice their opinions as long as they are not hurting others. They shouldn’t have to hide.
I’m not quite sure what you meant by Protestant churches being persecuted before the 16th century. Do mean actual Protestants weren’t persecuted because they didn’t have that label yet or did you mean that Christians were not persecuted?
The JW’s still come to my door, too. The Mormons departed long ago, but the JW’s, they’re still hanging on!
Dusty,
You always resort to calling everything ridiculous instead of doing actual research, it seems. Yes, we, as labeled atheists, are not always treated correctly, persecuted if you want to really dramatize most of it, but compared to what other people suffer for what they do or do not believe, it is minimal. Actually, if you consider the whole globe, Christians have a lot more to hate us for, than the reverse. It is just the way it is. Step outside of the western world and things change a bit. And atheists that are in some Muslim countries are actually being persecuted, too, and I just find it trite to complain about what we suffer here. Change is always needed, this is true.
I don’t mind facing the facts about what those with atheistic thoughts have done in the last century and still in the current century. Because, unlike the religious, we do not have a book that we fall back upon, so I don’t feel an imposed kinship with barbaric atheists. I don’t even like labels anyway, but I do take it as warning to be careful of my treatment of others.
Dusty, your tactics might not push people towards Christianity. It’s not really what I said. If you keep stepping further into hate, if that’s what it is, or if others take what you are saying and use it for hate, as has been done so many times before and currently, that is when it can turn into an epidemic and that is when people turn to Christianity despite the threat of persecution. Again, go research. Don’t research in the Christian way of just going to our atheistic sources. Search as broadly as you can on every topic. That has served me well, anyway.
I don’t really care if people stay Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons or whatever as long as they are not hurting anyone else. Sometimes I like to challenge them, but I like to do that with anyone, it doesn’t matter where they are in life.
Hate. That is what I am fighting against.
We’ve regurgitated the same things over and over again by now, though, you and I.
Its ok. It’s been an interesting conversation. I just don’t agree with you about certain things. I believe Christianity is a far greater threat than you obviously do. I see Christianity as the root problem of over 500,000 dead Iraqis and the destruction of my host planet, amongst other things.
I believe Christianity is the largest terrorist organization in the world and I’m determined to use any peaceful means I can to stop it. And if I have to say the word “Retard” a million fucking times to save one persons life, I’ll do it. How many times would you say the word “retard” to save someone’s life? How many people would you call “fucktards” to save one human life?
It seems a silly question. But that really is what we are talking about here. Real life pain and suffering and blood and death, going on right now because of this dogma. And the fact that you are not willing to do EVERYTHING that it peacefully takes to stop this is pretty appalling to me.
Now, I understand why you feel the way you do. It’s because you really don’t see the connection. You don’t see what Christianity has to do with 500,000 dead Iraqi’s or the destruction of our host planet.
But to some of us, it is VERY obvious. And once this is obvious to you, being a politically incorrect asshole seems like the very least you can do.
You know what? Yes, I agree with you quite a bit on that regard.
I know it was terrible under Saddam, but it doesn’t make our invasion right. Many of the deaths have been children. It is so sad. Sad, a word that doesn’t do it justice, but so many other words seem even less appropriate.
I’m not sure that I would blame it all on Christianity, but I can see where you are coming from. It makes sense.
I still don’t get attacking everyone that claims to be a Christian, but as long as it doesn’t turn to actually hatred of people, then I can understand the concern.
We’ll hey, I’ll consider that common ground then. I am certain we agree on far more than we disagree.
Darrell,
You know, many Christians really aren’t that bad. Many of them disregard what the Book of Ignorance, Bigotry, Lies, and Evil says about gays, women, people of different religions, war, creation, etc. So I see how you think we shall just “leave them to it”. However, this is a point many fail to realize: extremists are born from these liberals and moderates and find legitimacy in their numbers. Have you read “The End of Faith” and “Letter to a Christian Nation” by Sam Harris? He covers these concepts, and so many others, better than I could ever dream. I do not agree with all his opinions, but the majority of what he says is nothing short of genius. I actually have the pdfs of these….
You wrote, “Actually, if you consider the whole globe, Christians have a lot more to hate us for, than the reverse.” What do you mean by this? Are you talking about Stalinism and communist atheism, etc? You do realize that “atheism” is the “disbelief in a deity”? Disbelief in something does not imply action of any kind. I don’t believe in Santa, but I am not opposing the belief of Santa.
This is where we differ in views. (Forgive me for resorting to labels, as I am aware we generally dislike them. *rolls eyes and sighs) You are an atheist. You do not believe in a deity. I am an antitheist atheist. Not only do I not believe in a deity, but I also oppose the belief of a deity. Why? Dogma. “Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.” Stalinism was not terrible because of atheism. It was dogma. Nazism—dogma. Chinese communism—dogma. Religion—dogma. This is not a new idea; many atheists, whose intelligence far exceeds my own, have written and spoken about this.
Could modern-day “free-thinking” atheism become a dogma? Sure, but it would be difficult considering the laws of our nation. I personally think the concept of forcing people to think for themselves sounds absurd.
If our nation was truly secular (keeping religion out of government, politics, schools, and foreign policy) and forceful indoctrination was considered child abuse, I wouldn’t be antitheist. I would simply ignore the stupidity of Christianity and argue online with Muslims instead
. Hell, I wouldn’t even care about their silly pamphlets and proselytizing. (Mayan Prophesy proselytizing has no effect on me whatsoever, for example.)
And yes, I did mean before the Protestant Reformation, groups of Protestants were not persecuted…..not meaning that individuals that seemingly opposed catholicism weren’t. This was your argument…groups of atheists not being persecuted. I was simply using a comparison to show that there were no atheist “groups” to persecute in the past. There were no gay “groups” either. Does that mean everyone was straight? Of course not. Does that mean that individuals were not killed for being gay? Of course not.
I will concede, we do have to watch our actions and the progress of our exposure. We do need to stress to fellow atheists (antitheists, whatever) to not be truly angry at religious people. We do have to check ourselves and make sure we are not getting violent. Even I, as cheerful as I am, have to step away many times while posting on websites and remind myself that I used to be them.
Dusty,
Thanks for the compliment! But don’t let me take up your blog space with my LONG comments…I just don’t know how to STFU. Say “Kim, STFU.”
Kim
I’ve been very impressed with your comments, and anyone who knows me knows I do not give out compliments lightly.
I don’t disagree with a single word you said, and you put it so perfectly there is really nothing for me to expound upon.
What you were talking about in your post reminded me of a video I watched last night. “Cafferty File: Why are frequent churchgoers more likely to support torture?” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx2J52V9POU&feature=channel_page
Interesting news story on how the more you go to church the more likely you are to support torture. None of us, obviously, will be surprised to hear this, but this is exactly why I am, as you said, an antitheist.
It’s hard to believe you just became an atheist recently. You must have started reading everything you could get your hands on since then. Must be a quick study. It’s taken me more than 2 years to get this far.
Since we are keeping this conversation moving…
I’m not a fan of anti-theism atheism. I’ve always found it to have holes in its logic.
So, all Christianity is the same, but when it comes to atheism, there are exceptions. If the dogma of Christianity makes it always harmful, then wouldn’t the dogma that can be in atheism also always make it harmful, as well? Just always sounded, ironically, kind of like the argument of a religious leader. Not particularly rational. I’ve always seen everything as having a potential for harm or for good. It’s about people, not really about belief or disbelief, because both of those can cause some to become harmful to others.
I noticed the same thing as Dusty. You seem to have been a quick study in atheism; strange considering your removal from Christianity was from a statement which you failed to see the various other angles.
Not saying it is a bad thing, just kind of weird.
If state atheism became our government, what would you do? If it was the militant state atheism that outlawed religion, demand everyone’s thoughts (even to make them ‘freethinkers’), persecuted them (by imprisonment, death, actual severe persecution), what would you do?
I’m not implying one way or the other. I’m really just wondering, just throwing it out there for thought.
I’ve really got to get off the internet again. Thanks for all the good conversation. I’m sure I’ll be back once my eyes stop seeing the moving pixels in my computer screen.
Now your saying that christians are the cause of all this, but the government does it all and the government is not based on religion,excluding bush, many presidents didn’t beleive in any religion and just because some christians in the government do bad things dosen’t make us all acountable. I’m mean that’s like saying one black man robing a store would make all black men robbers that just Generalizing.
Great video. I’m a bit surprised the difference in percentage is not greater, but that just goes to really show that moderates aren’t much better than fundamentalists. I was once a fundamentalist Christian and I know how one thinks. “Kill them all and let God sort them out.” I’m sure I said this probably a hundred times. The shame I feel for once having been that person is sometimes unbearable.
Well, like I said, I had been debating it with my atheist friend online and in Yahoo Answers for a few weeks. Then, yes, I did read everything I could get my hands on, and watched every science video I could. I read “The End of Faith”, “Letter to a Christian Nation”, “The God Delusion”, and “God is not Great” in one week. This was all so new to me…I’d read the bible and hundreds of Christian books, so every atheist point I read about my religion was right on the money.
I hardly slept. I watched so many videos that first two weeks I’m surprised that I retained any of them, let alone all of them. I’ve sat outside for hours staring at the stars and trying to sort out how I felt and thought with this new knowledge.
In Y!A, there is not a point that I have not seen debated time and time again…Pascal’s Wager, the possibility of god’s existence, “spirituality”, morality, evolution vs creation, the big bang, abiogenesis, biblical contradictions, the evils of the bible, gay marriage, abortion, afterlife, etc. “Debates” generally last about 5 minutes, and I do two or three at a time, going back and forth between questions that I answered. I keep my IM open for anyone who wants to spew hate at me…but usually all I get are violation notices, nasty emails, and Muslim men hitting on me. (I don’t know why, but I could guess.) This is why I’m now branching out….and I find myself here.
I am nowhere NEAR your level…yet. I want to be. (Probably not the adult language so much….I could see some of my Christian family showing them to my child to spite me.) I hope you don’t think I am using you by trying to “learn” your technique.
*sigh
Darrell,
No. Not all Christianity is the same. People like my grandmother who only preach “Jesus candy” and sing beautiful songs about redemption and heaven are not the same as extremist Christians. I never fucking implied that they were. In fact, my opening sentences were: “You know, many Christians really aren’t that bad. Many of them disregard what the Book of Ignorance, Bigotry, Lies, and Evil says about gays, women, people of different religions, war, creation, etc.”
I did state, however, “extremists are born from these liberals and moderates and find legitimacy in their numbers.” Think about it.
“…strange considering your removal from Christianity was from a statement which you failed to see the various other angles.” What does that even mean? I WAS seeing your side. If I didn’t understand the concepts you presented, I would’ve asked you about them. I do understand the benefits of being a pacifist atheist. I also understand that is the type of atheists we have had for decades if not centuries. Just see how wonderfully secular our entire system is because of their hard work? (SARCASM) I had been a Christian for a very, very long time, and being the avid reader that I am, I have read more of the bible and Christian literature than you will probably ever read. I didn’t have to see that angle…that angle was ingrained in me, literally pounded into me by the very Christians you feel such pity for.
Now, because you have gotten to a point in our friendly debate that you are not feeling so sure about or wtf-ever, you wish to resort to ad hominem attacks? (And don’t give me that shit…this kind of debate is much different…we were both presenting real evidence, not speculations and scripture.) You know nothing of me, yet you make some random statement trying to discredit my argument with an irrelevant observation regarding my recent deconversion (following it with a safety net, of course…”Not saying it is a bad thing, just kind of weird” lest I accuse you of doing what you were actually trying to do!) FAIL!!!
I want secularism; I don’t want “state atheism”. It’s IMPOSSIBLE with our government, thankfully. SEE U.S. CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT ONE!!!!! If you put this question to Christians {If state Christianity became our government, what would you do? If it was the militant state Christianity that outlawed other religions and atheism, demand everyone’s thoughts (even to make them “happy clappers”), persecuted them (by imprisonment, death, actual severe persecution), what would you do?} Many of them would honestly say “Nothing! The world would be perfect.” I, on the otherhand, and many atheists I know, wouldn’t stand for this type of cruelty and control. Violence and murder is wrong…full stop.
So, I gather that you would do nothing in this situation. You would sit back and watch this because you don’t see yourself as a “leader”? Don’t ask a question you won’t answer yourself.
Kim
To Darrell,
It’s not just Christianity, but all faith based religions that I have a problem with. I manly focus on Christianity because it is the biggest target, having 2 billion members, and as I’m an American it affects me the most personally.
I do not believe atheism is a dogma, but the exact opposite. Atheism is founded on doubt, not belief. Dogma is founded on belief. I will change my opinion in a second if I receive better information than the information I already possess. If you want to call that a dogma then I think we have different definitions for that word.
Then you ask me about state ordered atheism. I certainly don’t want anyone’s rights to be taken away. I don’t believe it’s necessary. This is an information war, and as such can be won in the market place of ideas. The side who can properly spread their memes will win out in the end.
And it will all come down to whoever has the best meme spreading tactics. Clearly Christianity’s tactics of spreading their memes has been incredibly successful for two thousand years now. But with the shift of information to the internet, the game has changed. For the first time, we really have a shot at wiping out faith based memes once and for all.
Now, I guess the question is, do you think that is a good idea or not? Personally, I reason that the move from a faith based society to a logic based society is an inevitable step in our societal evolution.
You can personally witness this evolution already taking place. Christians are becoming pariahs on the internet. You go to sites like Digg.com, Reddit.com, StumbleUpon, Youtube, or really any big social site and the Christians are completely dominated. The atheist own the internet, lock stock and barrel.
And for good reason. In the market place of ideas Christian memes just can not compete with atheist memes. Because their beliefs are founded on lies and obvious bullshit, it is very difficult for them to properly spread on the internet where everything can be fact checked with a simple google search.
And since memes work the same way genes do, it’s just a process of natural selection. The faith based memes will go extinct just as many species who could not compete did.
To Justin,
First off, the foundational beliefs of the people can never be separated from the way they govern. If prop 8 didn’t prove that to you then nothing ever will.
Secondly, I can understand why you’d want to “blame the government” but guess what, we are the government. All of us. It’s not like we are just helpless bystanders who have to sit idly by and do nothing. These atrocities were committed by us. You and me. Our tax dollar paid for it. We, as a society did not stop it. The blood is on our hands. I can understand how horrible it is to admit that fact to yourself, but it is the truth.
Now to me, whatever foundational dogma allowed people to just let this happen is bad. Don’t you agree?
No, one black man robbing a store would not make all black men robbers. But if all black men believed fairy tales written thousands of years ago instead of the thousands of years of science we have learned since then, it would make them all retarded.
Also, way to perpetuate the stereotype that Christians are racist. I noticed the very first analogy that came to your mind was of a black man robbing a store. It wasn’t a white man robbing a store, or an Asian man, or even a dirty Mexican. It was a black guy! Shameless.
To Kim,
Y/A seems like it was a very beneficial learning tool. It’s amazing how answering questions for people actually allows us to flush out what it is we really believe ourselves. The more you do it, the easier it becomes to explain.
I understand why you wouldn’t resort to the full on mockery that I do, with all the cursing. In the society we live in, you really have to be in just a certain particular situation before you can do it like I do. Most people have day jobs where they can’t piss of their bosses by being atheist, or they have family they worry about. Or they are just afraid to be public about it period.
I do it because I can. All my close family has been deconverted, and I don’t give a fuck what anyone on earth thinks of me; and because I understand how rare it is for all these “qualities” to come together, I almost feel obligated to do it.
But feel free to take anything from this blog you want. I just want my memes to spread. I’m sure I’ll learn just as much from you as you will from me.
Hey all,
It was relaxing to be off work for a day, offline. I still think it is easier to converse in person since you can see someone’s expressions and hear their inflections.
I definitely don’t think atheism is a dogma , but I think it can be used in that manner just like anything else. It has been. Extremists can be born in any belief or disbelief.
One of my whole major points is that whether religious or non-religious, it can all be used for good or evil. It’s been seen through history. The spinners of anything can slice it how they want to, but it doesn’t really change it. Yes, we do have on our side that we don’t have an actual book to fall back upon, thankfully. But the reason most of those in state atheism resorted to severe persecution was because they wanted to end religion, they wanted people to follow science. You can tell me everything that you have quickly absorbed from our most known atheist speakers, but as you go a long, just make sure you are really coming to your own conclusions. Really dig into abstract thoughts.
That is my whole point, too, in bringing up your conversion. See, back then you didn’t even have a response to a simple attack on your story of prayer, when there are hypothetically many angles available. One being that a god could answer your prayer because ‘he’ works with willing hearts and it doesn’t mean that there isn’t care about the suffering in the world. Does it prove anything? Well, no, not to me, but it just seemed like you were oddly unable to come up with any form of varied thoughts. Now, you are striding along nicely, but, to me, it seems that you are still listening to what others tell you. I wouldn’t converse with you this much, if I didn’t think that you already have great potential for thought! Sorry, if it is all very offensive.
I just don’t like fundies of any sort very much. However, I take it back a little, I do like Richard Dawkins a good bit. Maybe it is the British accent!
I bet a lot of Christians would go for giving persecution now! It’s a good point. It’s one thing I’ve come to understand about you all in the bible belt. I would go insane living amongst those people, or in mormonland. All of those people are enough to turn Jesus away from Christianity.
Kim, I don’t know what I would do if my question to you happened! That is what scares me and why I think I focus on it so much because I really do think that most people are easily convinced.
I would hope I would be brave enough to stand up against anything of that nature. I think it’s why I read about history so much.
Dusty,
You’ll have to forgive me for not properly responding to Darrell for his last harangue. Apparently, my thoughts are not my own, I’m a fundie atheist, and I was not intelligent enough to continue arguing with my atheist friend though I was 100% wrong….but, hey! at least I have potential for thought! Every cloud has a silver lining!
Maybe one day I can continue to argue with everybody just for the sake of holding my corner, even when I’m clearly wrong. Then, maybe I’ll be able to partake in abstract thinking, instead of merely “parroting” the atheist horsemen! But for now, I’ll have to settle for being a misguided, yeasayer with borrowed opinions….alas.
Darrell,
This was, in fact, meant to be offensive. Fortunately, I do not get offended by ad hominem arguments…I accept them for what they are, and I move along. It’s nice to know what you truly think of me though.
Kim
Hey Kim,
I grow more suspicious of Darrell with every post. He doesn’t sound like any atheist I’ve ever encountered. He seems to have no real understand of the concept of atheism, which makes it impossible that he (or she) could have ever been one to begin with. And the fact that he has no links to blogs or anything at all proving he is actually who he says he is, makes me believe its just another troll signed up under a fake name.
There is only so much time I can spend on such people. I mean what do you do when someone claims they are an atheist but is doing absolutely nothing to advance the cause? You really have to wonder if they really are what they claim to be, because if you truly were an atheist and understood the magnitude of the problem, it seems like you would spend your time doing SOMETHING (anything at all) instead of harassing other atheists who actually are trying to do something.
You’d think he’d be debating theist and showing us examples of how his methods are superior. You think he would give specific examples backing up his claim that his methods work better. But instead, we get nothing. So very hard to take him seriously.
Usually, when someone doesn’t pass the “smell test” it’s for good reason, and Darrell definitely doesn’t pass the smell test. You’ve already proven you are much braver and honest than he (she) is, so don’t sweat anything he says (not that you were sweating it at all anyway).
Obviously time to move on to brighter paths.
I tried to give you guys the benefit of the doubt since you had been crazy Christians from the middle of nowhere, but some aspects might not ever change in people.
If you want to take lessons from someone who is actually bold yet sensible, a little harsh yet cool, original, intelligent, varied and balanced in thought go check out:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,20,Atheists-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins
Ciao
Aw man, don’t be like that. If you really are an atheist, stop fussing with us and help us out. We definitely shouldn’t be arguing amongst ourselves.
However, if you are just a troll, good riddance.
I am very familiar with Richard Dawkins. He has been around for decades, but it is only recently since he has adopted the exact same tactics I use that he has started to get known to a more main stream audiences. He is finally figuring out the best way to spread his memes to a more mainstream audience, and it’s by doing exactly what I do (albiet on a slightly less extreme scale).
However, I’m willing to bet money on the fact that as time goes by, Mr. Dawkins will begin to use mockery even more than he does now.
Dusty,
Thanks for all your hard work representing Atheists.
I am new to your site and certainly haven’t read most of what is here, but I have noticed several comments that criticize you for manipulation, oversimplification, and sensationalism as a means of, for lack of a better term, increasing the size of your flock. (Please excuse the religious pun, I couldn’t resist.)
On behalf of all of the underspoken, too-polite Atheists out there, THANK YOU!!! You are absolutely correct in your views and your methods. There are many many sensationalist, mind-controlling religious nuts out there. How many outspoken leaders do we have? The scales are so far out of balance that we absolutely need to throw our weight hard the other way, that won’t ever happen by being polite, reasonable, and considerate.
And in case anyone wants to respond to this saying, these tactics make you no better than them! How can you be so shallow? Your answer is… we know, if a few of us have to sink to their level to make progress, that’s just fine, being polite and considerate hasn’t worked, we are willing to risk being a little shallow in order to help the world be less retarded.
So, Thank You.
Hi Ian and Welcome,
Thanks a lot for the support. I know there are tons of like minded atheist out there who are frustrated with the incredible failure of the atheist movement. The fact that we can have 100% of the scientific evidence on our side and yet in polls have less than 10% of the population on our side is a glowing testament to the fact that the current tactics of atheist are not working. This blog as well as my videos are an experiment to see if fighting fire with fire works better.
Thanks for taking the time to show your support. It means a lot.
To Kim, when you say in your original post “I’m glad God was helping you make friends at work while allowing half the world to live in starvation and utter poverty and filth.” Why do you and many others blame God for ‘allowing’ things like this to happen?
Can’t we humans take responsibility for our own actions including injustice, poverty and world imbalances, etc. Do we simply expect God to magically fix all these things, and if he doesn’t he is therefore ‘allowing’ them to happen …?
I don’t get that point of view at all!
Since Kim doesn’t really believe God exists, she is not actually blaming him for anything. You can’t really blame something that doesn’t exist. Instead I think she is just pointing out the absurdity of an all powerful, loving God who sits idly by and allows “his” children to starve and die horrible, brutal, torturous deaths.
After all, is there anyway, under any circumstance you would ever allow your child to starve and die a brutal death? Of course not. Because you love them. No matter what they did, EVER, you would never allow that to happen to them. No loving being could ever allow that to happen to their child.
So either god is a total psychopath who behaves in a manor that no rational parent on earth would behave, or he simply doesn’t exist. Which I believe is Kim’s point.
There are multiple reasons for hating God, if there is one. I grew up in a Catholic family, so “God” has always been something that I have grown up around. Since I was about 16 years old, I really started to question if there even is a God. I certainly believe in a greater existence, but if there is a God, plain and simple, he’s an asshole.
First of all, he creates human beings to worship him constantly? People of the Baptist religion that I know go to church four times a week. What kind of life is that the the “almighty” God gave us? If he created people to worship him all the time, he’s an asshole.
Second off, my Grandma and my Grandpa were/are very religious. Four years ago, my Grandma took it to the grave with her when she found out that she had lung cancer and died two months later. My Grandpa, earlier this year, had to get his leg amputated, causing him to sell his house and everything he has known for the last fifty years. These two went to church EVERY Sunday, and this is how God repays them? Fuck that. We have rapists and murderers and thieves out on the loose, many of them living comfortably while my religious grandparents have to suffer.
Third, what has God ever done for me? As greedy as it sounds, it’s true. I’m not trying to look for sympathy, but I’m not good at a single thing I do and I live with a ton of stress with working and going to school full time. God didn’t help me pass my finals, God doesn’t help me with a single hobby I have from videogames to bowling. While I realize that if their was a God, he should be helping the starving and the diseased, he doesn’t. He doesn’t help those people and he doesn’t help people with the very simple things in life.
A test of faith people say? Bullshit. This all powerful loving God makes examples out of people to test the faith of others? Once again, he’s an asshole.
God knows everything before it happens? Well, for all of those who have been raped or lived a horrible life, or… are even damned to hell, your God knew all about it, and did nothing. You were pre-destined to burn forever in hell, get raped, get killed, starve, or die of lung cancer.
If there is a God, fuck him.
Hello Jim and welcome,
Thank you for sharing your story. I think most of us feel the same way. If the God of the bible were real, he would be a grotesque monster. Lucky for us that it is so improbable that the god of the bible exists that it is practically Zero. Sure there’s the “Anythings Possible” chance, but in that scenario there are an infinite number of alternatives that are just as likely.
Now as to whether or not their is a God outside of the Christan god. I have seen no evidence but I’m open minded should any ever arise.
Clearly if their is a God of some sort, he is totally unconcerned with us. He does not interfere or care. So in that case, it doesn’t really matter if one exists or not.
Okay, to me the heart of this debate consists in a question of rights:
If I’m entitled to non-belief, aren’t retards entitled to their faith?
Yes, it’s true: the stupidity of religion is responsible for so many unnecessary horrors: the spanish inquisition, the pogroms, 9/11, Darfur, more wars and murders and misery than can possibly be accounted for in a single blog posting, but what about the misery inflicted upon humans by Nature?
What I mean is, wars aren’t being fought in the name of “Darwinism” but an awful lot of criminal behavior occurs because we ARE animals: we are biologically programmed to kill and steal and lie and believe dumb things: blame for this terrible, “retarded” behavior can be laid at the feet of how we have evolved much more easily and effectively than it can be blamed upon what stupid things we’ve thought.
In fact, to your point about the effectiveness of debate: what makes you believe that anything people think makes a difference to how they behave? I see very little evidence anywhere that murderousness and cruelty stem from ideas that people have: it’s all just stimulus and response–raw animal behavior.
So, again, I might agree with you that belief is dumb, but am I sure that belief in God is the source of human dysfunction? I have no proof that the world would be a better place, full of more rationally behaved citizens without religion, and neither does anyone else.
I do agree that religion restricts knowledge and understanding, but I can’t automatically connect a religious prohibition against free-thinking to the greatest sum of human shittiness. My orientation to this planet leads me to believe that without religion, we’d be just as shitty to each other.
Anyway, I’ve gotten away from my original point, which was this: if I feel that what people think is retarded, but I can’t actually prove that it’s retarded, how can I take it upon myself to replace their belief with mine?
I’m human, and I’m flawed. I don’t know everything and will never, ever, to any decent philospher’s satisfaction, be able to prove or disprove the existence of God: all I have is a strong suspicion that God doesn’t exist (which, really, is all any atheist has: he has well-ordered doubts against incohate faith). How does my strong suspicion of non-existence trump the retard’s faith to the point where I can just take away his churches?
I’m not unsympathetic to your position, Dusty: I emotionally agree with it, but logically, it really is unsupportable.
You can’t say you’re in greater possession of a truth that you don’t actually possess: no one actually knows how the universe came about, and if there was a reason for it, etc. Just because atheism makes more sense doesn’t mean it makes absolute sense. It is merely the most sensible position you can take given the information that you have–like believing that the world was flat in an era before the development of stone tools.
dusty i completely agree, now imagine
once upon a time a boy grew up who wasnt one of the 99% retarded, because he lived in alabama, and imagine how he felt when he escaped!!!
true story : ) i hate the bible belt!! i escaped a long time ago!!
Hey Greg,
Thanks for the well written and thought out message. I do not disagree with all that much you said, but out of respect for the time and thought you put into your message, I will give it equal respect and go through it part by part to give you my thoughts.
First off you asked “If I’m entitled to non-belief, aren’t retards entitled to their faith?”
Me: I guess it depends on what you mean by “entitled”. Everyone certainly has the right to “believe” whatever they want to. It’s their actions I have a problem with. If their beliefs lead them to carry out actions that harm others, then there are only 3 logical solutions. Incarcerate them for life, kill them, or change the way they think. It is this last option I find to be the most desirable.
Next you said “Yes, it’s true: the stupidity of religion is responsible for so many unnecessary horrors: the spanish inquisition, the pogroms, 9/11, Darfur, more wars and murders and misery than can possibly be accounted for in a single blog posting, but what about the misery inflicted upon humans by Nature?”
Me: I do not believe anything is separate from nature. Nature is everything. Therefore I do not look at 911 and Darfur any different then I look at misery created by nature.
Next you say, “What I mean is, wars aren’t being fought in the name of “Darwinism” but an awful lot of criminal behavior occurs because we ARE animals: we are biologically programmed to kill and steal and lie and believe dumb things: blame for this terrible, “retarded” behavior can be laid at the feet of how we have evolved much more easily and effectively than it can be blamed upon what stupid things we’ve thought.”
Me: I don’t disagree with what you’re saying here in principle. We are animals and evolutionarily programed to be mean sons of bitches. In my observation, this “retarded” behavior stems from a lack of knowledge. We are still a very dumb animal. Much closer to our Ape brothers than most people feel comfortable believing.
But what seems to separate us from our pure animal brethren is the evolutionary gift of imagination. The gift of imagination further granted us the supreme gift of empathy. The larger your imagination, the more empathy you are likely to have and the less “retarded” you are likely to act.
These are things I have witnessed first hand. Things I am not taking on faith. From my observations, the thing that seems to be causing the most misery is simply a lack of information. Hence why I use the word “Retarded”. Retarded behavior is simply behavior caused by a lack of information.
So, having said that, I agree that the problem is much bigger than just religion. It’s a problem in the programming of our memes. I’m not sure if you are familair with the concepts of memetics. But basically you can think of the overall “operating system” of the human species just like it is a computer code.
As a species, we have had an overall computer code that has worked well enough to get us to where we are right now as a species, but still it’s a very primitive computer code, and like all computer codes, our overall human “operating system” is constantly evolving and being updated.
The code overall has too many places that need repairing for any one person to ever tackle alone. The code has been cobbled together from so many smaller programs that it is really a mess overall, but somehow it has managed to find a balance and “works”, although poorly. These are all just completely natural processes. We see these patterns repeating over and over in nature and this is just another form of evolution.
So really all I’m talking about here is a code upgrade. I’m not a good enough “coder” to tackle the entire human “operating system” myself. I can only work on one little piece, and the piece I have chosen to work on is “religion”.
It is this piece of the code that, in my observation, is slowing down the upgrading of the rest of the operating system. It is my desire that the operating system evolve and upgrade as quickly as possible, and I reason that the quickest way to bring this outcome about is to do my part to fix the main obstacle to this evolution.
Then you said “In fact, to your point about the effectiveness of debate: what makes you believe that anything people think makes a difference to how they behave? I see very little evidence anywhere that murderousness and cruelty stem from ideas that people have: it’s all just stimulus and response–raw animal behavior.”
Me: I’m not exactly sure what you mean here. Obviously peoples thoughts lead to there actions. If people did not “think” then they would be vegetables. But I am assuming you are referring to different sides to our personality?
I don’t view human minds like that. It is all computer code to me. Just ones and zeros electronically firing in the computer of your brain.
I believe your point, though, is that people are cruel and mean no matter what religion they belongs to (or not), and that no one dogma has a monopoly on cruelty. Instead, you believe that the cruelty is caused by some other part of the computer code besides religion.
I hope I am understanding your points correctly. If so, I don’t disagree with you. The under pinnings of modern memetics work on the exact same Darwinian laws that genetics do. So the very base code itself, which you refer to as “animal”, is in fact the source of this “retarded” behavior.
This is a very complex topic we are getting in to, but I have a feeling from your writings that you are intelligent enough to follow it, so I will keep going.
As you have already correctly pointed out, the problems lies not “just” with religion itself, but the problem actually starts at the “animal” basecode. The “retardation” starts in the very “basecode” and then from that primitive program, all the other programs spring from it, such as all the different religions, harmful dogmas, etc.
If I could work on the basecode and change it directly, I would. Unfortunately, the computer code is very well “protected” by the codes above it, such as Christianity. There is no way to change the “animal” basecode, when the majority of humans do not even believe they are animals to begin with. Their dogmas have taught them that they are not animals, but “above” and separate from them. And until you can convince the majority of people that the “animal” basecode even exists to begin with, then there is little chance of changing this base code; because this basecode literally exists in the minds of these people. Their minds have many safeguards to keep you from changing the code in it, and when it comes to changing the “animal” basecode, I believe you first have to get them to understand that it actually does exists before they will lower their mental firewalls and allow the code upgrades to take place.
Once again, I know this is very deep, heavy stuff. These are such complex concepts that it is very hard to find common terms to explain them with. I hope I am doing this subject justice.
At any rate, what we are talking about here is a chess match, where to be victorious we have to think several steps ahead. The end goal is to change the base “Animal” operating system, and to be honest, the ultimate goal in the end is to evolve past the Darwinian model of evolution altogether. Because EVERYTHING evolves, even evolution. Eventually the entire evolutionary system will evolve past the Darwinian method to a much less “Retarded” and cruel system.
But we are a long way from that. For now we can only lay the foundation for that future by fixing the pieces of the code we actually have access to. And religion, one of the most powerful “mental firewalls” is accessible to me and I do have the power to help change that piece of the code in peoples minds. So that’s what I’m doing.
Anyway lets keep going. Then you said. “So, again, I might agree with you that belief is dumb, but am I sure that belief in God is the source of human dysfunction? I have no proof that the world would be a better place, full of more rationally behaved citizens without religion, and neither does anyone else.”
Me: No I do not believe belief in God is the source of human dysfunction. I believe religion is the result of the “animal” basecode.
As for “proof” that the world would be better off without religion, I have certainly seen much evidence for this. Not only have I seen it in myself, and how much more empathetic I became once I left Christianity, but I have also seen this in society in general.
Our society is getting less religious. People are far less likely to go to church these days or follow the Bible like they were even 50 years ago. This lack of religion has led to many wonderful things, like the growing acceptance of homosexuals, women’s suffrage, and civil rights. The less religious we act, the more civil we seem to become.
I know it doesn’t appear this way because our mass media makes it seems like we are in the most violent times in history, but actually the opposite is true. Statistically right now we are living in one of the most peaceful times in history. Even with all the wars going on and misery in the world, it has still never been so good.
In my observation, the reason for this is because of the increase of knowledge, which has led to a decrease in religion. There are always horrible things you can point at when knowledge is increased, like Atomic bombs, for example. But overall the more that information increases, the more “Humane” our society seems to behave.
Then you said “Anyway, I’ve gotten away from my original point, which was this: if I feel that what people think is retarded, but I can’t actually prove that it’s retarded, how can I take it upon myself to replace their belief with mine?
“I’m human, and I’m flawed. I don’t know everything and will never, ever, to any decent philospher’s satisfaction, be able to prove or disprove the existence of God: all I have is a strong suspicion that God doesn’t exist (which, really, is all any atheist has: he has well-ordered doubts against incohate faith). How does my strong suspicion of non-existence trump the retard’s faith to the point where I can just take away his churches?”
Me: Your point here seems to be that since none of us possess 100% of the information, and therefore can never know with complete certainty if what we are doing is right or not, then why bother?
With that attitude you would never do anything. You would never leave your house. Why bother? Leaving the house might be the wrong thing to do so why do it?
The reality of the matter is, all we can do is do what we think will bring the most desirable outcome. Can we ever now for 100% if we are doing the right thing or not? Nope. But we can know whats probable to be true and whats not probable to be true, and act accordingly.
Also, I do not advocate taking away anyone’s churches, or freedom of religion, or anything like that. None of that is necessary. This is an information war, and this can be easily won in the realm of ideas. No draconian actions need be taken.
Finally you finish with, “I’m not unsympathetic to your position, Dusty: I emotionally agree with it, but logically, it really is unsupportable.
You can’t say you’re in greater possession of a truth that you don’t actually possess: no one actually knows how the universe came about, and if there was a reason for it, etc. Just because atheism makes more sense doesn’t mean it makes absolute sense. It is merely the most sensible position you can take given the information that you have–like believing that the world was flat in an era before the development of stone tools.”
ME: I still don’t understand how logically my position is unsupportable. You will have to clarify that for me.
I never once said that I know for 100% certainty that there is no god and never could be. However, I deal in probabilities, as I’ve said many times; and the GREAT probability is that their is no God.
As an Atheist I do not deny the possibility of a God. I simply say that I have seen no evidence that he exists, therefore I do not believe it.
By your rational, since we can’t be 100% that Santa Claus doesn’t exist, that means we don’t have the right to tell people he doesn’t exist. Of course we do. We have not only the right but also the duty to inform and educate our fellow man on reality. These are our fellow human being who have been lied to and mislead their entire lives. We owe it to them to tell them what the evidence suggest is most probable to be true. Especially when they believe in Fairy Tales that directly effect our lives.
Ok I’m done. If you make it through all that and understand what I’m saying, you are amazing.
DS
The big hole in my position is the one you found near the end of your response:
“With that attitude you would never do anything. You would never leave your house. Why bother? Leaving the house might be the wrong thing to do so why do it?”
That’s true: absolute passivity is a mistaken solution to any problem, and, you’re correct, that’s more or less where my logic leads me.
Your position is supportable, thanks to your clarification that you aren’t mandating a political war against belief: you simply want to re-program the human meme, as you call it. That, to me, seems a very respectable and worthwhile goal, but it wasn’t obvious to me that you were only advocating persuasive memes: it seemed to me that you advocating something a little more…um…militaristic and unilateral.
But I’m glad to see that I’m wrong.
Best of luck to you, and keep fighting the good fight
Greg
“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. ” — Richard Dawkins
Obviously there is NO god..and i dont need science to explain to me why their is no god, if you were to really think about it in a logical sense you would realize religion is the silliest shit ever. there are no ghost’s, goblins, gods or any kind of afterlife…its all in our brains..we are animals, no matter how civilized and evolved you think you are, you are still an animal..there will always be war, murder and terrible things in the world cause thats what animals do..it will never change and it never has.
dude lmfao u go!!!! humans are low level nowadays,yes im talking to u posers!!! i myself am a open minded satanist,i respect everything,however i dont get that same respect back,but u put the words in my mouth! 85% of ppl are retarded and religion is a money making sham that ppl are to stupid to see,keep fighting for wat u believe in dusty!!!
Lol Dusty i loved your story and its so true and typical as well, it gave me the first really good laugh that i’ve had in a long time.
Insofar as atheism is concerned, that doesn’t seem to wash any more than the conventional beliefs of christianity, as for people to be as collectively stupid as they are, despite having more or less normal intelligence, would simply be impossible without some kind of divine intervention. This simply defies all reason and logic which is what atheism is based on. The simple fact that they are willing to tolerate a banking system which has created this terrible economic crisis for us despite the fact that our production capacity hasn’t changed one bit, and live their lives in the service of these parasites which contribute absolutely nothing to anyone’s benefit, is clear and absolute proof of this, hence defying all reason, sense and logic, and were it not for a spiritual component, that’s all that there would be.
Here is my experience and conclusions thus far. I hope that i will be proven wrong, but i’m not expecting this to happen as the evidence in favor of those conclusions is overwhelming:
After 20 years of faith in the Christian God, i have finally reached the point where i have had to look beyond his words, and examine the evidence of his actions, both in my own life and throughout the course of human history. This has led me to draw some very different conclusions about him than what we are told to believe. I am wishing that he would prove these conclusions wrong, but based on overwhelming evidence to the contrary, i’m not expecting him to do so either.
Aside from death and taxes, we have two guarantees in this life, and these are that evil will always be rewarded and good will always be punished. For those unwilling to accept this, simply look at the evidence in your own life, and examine the evidence of human history. For anyone who is even vaguely familiar with American history, you already know that virtually everyone who risked everything out of love for their fellow man, in order to establish the freedoms which we have enjoyed in this country for the past 200 or so years, and who did it successfully, were cursed with terrible consequences in their personal lives, ranging from the death of loved ones to the destruction of their prosperity and this seems to be consistent with each and every one of the founding fathers of this nation. I know that personally in my own life, the greater the good that i have been able to accomplish the worse the curses have become, and having accomplished much good, and received many curses, this is the only thing i have come to depend on from God anymore. In view of our current and manufactured “economic crises”, once again, God loves and blesses the banks who created it with ever increasing and abundant riches and prosperity, while he curses those of us on whom the banks exist as parasites, who’s objective is to provide worthwhile and valuable contributions toward the benefit of their fellow man, to the point where any possible effort we could make toward this end has been destroyed simply by the banks having removed all of the currency from the system to enable us to do so.
I believe that God has an understanding of what is right, and of the principles of love, freedom and justice that should be adhered to by all humanity, and that if he himself was capable of adhering to and serving these principles. and actually helping those of us who live our lives in service to them to accomplish the good we would wish to accomplish in this world, that life and the world in general could truly become a wonderful thing. Instead though, it seems that he is addicted to entertaining himself with all of the suffering and misery which he gives Satan permission to inflict on humanity, so that the two of them can entertain themselves by making bets with each other on what the outcome is going to be. If anyone doubts this, i’ll simply ask you to read the book of Job, as the evidence is right there in front of your face and from God’s own mouth. This book is in dire contrast to everything else that is stated about God in the Bible and the actions of God toward Job are not the actions of a loving father, and both cannot be true. This book has also been the greatest challenge to my faith for the entire time that i have believed, and having examined Gods actions as opposed to his words, the only conclusion i can come to is that this is the single and only book which portrays God’s true character, and that the remainder are simply lies in order to give us something good and worthwhile to believe in so that the two of them can use and bless those who’s purpose is to inflict suffering, hardship and misery on us with the means and ability to do so, as we exist as nothing more than toys for the purpose of God and Satan’s amusement and this is seems to be the single and only thing that amuses them both.
The only conclusion that i can come to at this point, is that in terms of God and Satan, we are dealing with two eternal beings who exist as energy and can neither be created nor destroyed, who are both bored to tears with an eternal existence, and have nothing better to do with their time than to inflict suffering and misery on their own creation in order to entertain themselves and give them something to do. As such, they are obviously in collusion with each other, just as our banks and the politicians they have put into power are in collusion against the interests of the American people, and since 100 % of the spiritual energy in this universe is directed toward maintaining the suffering and misery on which they entertain themselves, there is absolutely no hope of any good being accomplished, because they have the power to act against this which we have no power to overcome. Any good that we do manage to accomplish in spite of them will be very quickly destroyed, just as is the case for our once great nation and the freedom which it established, as in another 5 years it will no longer exist.
I have a theory, and i have no idea if its correct or not, but its the only thing i can think of which might have some chance of success. It is possible, that since both God and Satan exist as energy, and this must be the case with any form of eternal being, that they derive a large portion of that energy from the blind faith and worship of humanity toward them. God from those who have unquestioning faith and trust in him. and believe in the principles of love, freedom and justice established in his word, and Satan from those who are addicted to power, and spend their lives inflicting the suffering and misery on their fellow man, for no other reason that that it makes them feel ever more powerful, and as such provide both God and Satan with the entertainment that they are both addicted to.
The vast majority of Christians in this world, who’s desire would be to serve the principles of love, freedom and justice which are established in the Bible, also worship God, and have complete, total and absolute faith and trust in him. As such, they are willing to simply accept the evil that is accomplished in this world as part of God’s great plan (which i suppose it is, as his plan seems to be simply to allow more and more evil to be accomplished), expecting to receive eternal rewards for any suffering that is inflicted on them, and as such they are neither willing nor motivated to do anything about it and generally accomplish nothing. I wonder what would happen, if enough of them would reach the point where they had to examine their faith as i have, and draw the obvious conclusions from doing so, then turn their back on God, and instead of trusting and worshiping him, put their individual and collective efforts toward actually accomplishing the principles of love, freedom, and justice that they believe in in a real and tangible way, in the world that we live in today. Those who serve Satan will always do so, but although they are the majority, they exist simply and only to serve a compulsion, and intelligence and ability are generally on our side. If God does indeed derive his power from our worship, in ceasing to do so, we would have eliminated or at least greatly reduced one half of the power working against us, and it would seem to increase our chances of overcoming the other half, and actually accomplishing the things we believe in ourselves, instead of simply trusting God to do this for us which he will never do.
If I have to hear one more person say “god is good”, I am going to put a bullet in my head and fall into everlasting unconsciousness. I wouldn’t have such a problem with religion if people just kept it to themselves. I do not want to hear about your imaginary god or you trying to pull me to the “good side” for your own personal benefit. I think the real question is WHO GIVES A FUCK?? I wont rack my brains with religion anymore, all i ask is keep that shit out of the goddamn government. We DO NOT need religious fanatics running this government!!
You are being such a baby!! You are obviously just extremely annoyed that people keep talkking about something you haven’t expreineced yet… Get over it!! Evert single civillization has had conflicts like ours! The Sunni-Shi’ite split, the Jewish-Christianity conflict in Rome…. you need to open your eyes and see that everyone in history has had a conflict with others on what they believe! However, did they make theirselves seem completely unsophisticated and call their entire population mentally retarded?…
Perhaps you need to take a deep breath and realize that you’re over-reacting. The reason you probably can’t understand why these people are so passionate and ready to share Christianity is becuase your lost and lonely soul cannot even imagine the intensely glorious love of God. I feel sorry for you and will continually pray that one day you are able to experience what I’m talking about. Just hold back on all the name calling as much as you can. Becuase when you see the light, I have a feeling you’re going to be pretty embaressed that you insulted the “85%” of people who had it right the whole time and were waiting around for you “15%” who needed a little extra help with getting things sorted out in their heads…
Anyone who can defend Christianity has never really read the Bible.
Dusty,
I agree, thinking is hard. Whether we are humans made in the image of God or just humans evolved from apes, we see the world. We learn about the universe we live in. This world is ridden with war, famine and disease. Not only that but there are problems with humanity itself. People hate each other and are willing to start wars and kill many people for what they believe is “good”. But that is not good. Lots of suffering and hate come from it. Everyone tries to blame the other person for the suffering in the world. It is human nature to learn about the world and to root out the problems in it. But the problems will not be solved by blaming the other guy. That creates more anger and hatred. What I believe could go a long way is if absolutely everyone could own their own crap. That is part of why I am a christian. When I accepted Jesus into my life I was asking God for forgiveness for all the wrong I have done. In essence you are owning your own crap. If everyone at least owned their own crap then this world could be a better place. (as humans no one is perfect whether they are Christian, Atheist, Muslim or whatever)I believe it would be a better place because (since no one is perfect) we would be identifying the source of much of the evil in the world. The first step of dealing with any problem is admitting it is there. The problem is an evil humanity. (I am sorry if it seems I am bashing people)It does not matter if you are an atheist or a christian, you can see throughout human history all of the war and political and social upheaval. Isn’t it sad when people become victims from the own systems they have made. (An example was the communist Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin) While humans have has shown a remarkable resilience throughout history I can’t help but wonder why we human beings can’t just stop being evil, from the mildest hurtful thought or little white lie to the mass genocides (religious or non-religious). Somehow the Bible answers this question by saying we are born into sin and that it is part of us. (Sin is falling short of God’s standard for us) God wants every human being to be completely perfect. That is his standard. As much as a single little white lie or bad thought will put us short of this standard. I know this sounds like typical religious nut job jargon but please bear with me. The old testament of the bible is filled with thousands of laws. Since I believe in all of the bible I need to answer to all of you bible and God haters about all of the “atrocities” in the old testament. Basically what went on was if you fell short of God’s standard even once you were punished. God destroyed many of the people in the Bible because they didn’t live up to his standard, sometimes in the thousands. I do not deny that. The point of all this was to show people that sin results in death. Under the law there is no mercy. You probably have heard of this before but this is why Jesus comes in. He died as a sacrifice for our sin and rose again to life so we could have a relationship with our creator. love Jesus’ blood takes away our imperfectness and makes us perfect so we can have forgiveness of sins and life in heaven after we die. All out of a loving God who knew humans couldn’t do it by themselves so he did it for us. As much as I hate to say this, people who do not accept this will live in suffering in hell for all eternity. This is what being a christian is, trusting in Jesus for salvation and telling it to others and warning people of the consequences of rejecting it. (This must be part of the 85% you were talking about)I know this may sound hateful and arrogant, telling people that they will live in hell where evil is the ruler. People must accept Christ, you are giving up yourself to him and allowing him to change you into a new person. You want evidence for this? How about all of the Christians over the past two thousand years who have been executed, exiled and hated because they spread the message of Jesus. Did they endure excruciating torture for a lie? Did they die for a lie? A mentally unstable person as you have said loves to live in bliss. That is a fact. Being a christian, while it brings hope to many, while a joyful thing to believe in is a scary thing to live. In my opinion is is so much easier for me to depend on myself to get around this world and only believe in something if there is hard evidence for it. It is terrifying and difficult thing to put my trust in a God who seems invisible and sometimes, not there. I feel comfortable in things I can see and that is where the road splits, I think, from people who cannot trust in God because there is no evidence, to people who are willing to say that not everything in existence is right in front of our faces. It goes back to what I said at the beginning where people want to learn about the universe. That is the beauty of science. But as limited people living in a complex world we will not know everything that there is to know. It is not bliss to live out a christian life, it is tough to tell people about the Bible because we may be hated because of it, it is tough to know that I may offend some non-believers since you are also human. It is much easier to back into hiding and leave it to ourselves (which a lot of people would like. I would feel much more comfortable if Jesus said “OK you are saved, now go have an easy life and I will see you in heaven”. That would be bliss because we wouldn’t be resisting the world which is growing to hate God more and more. Free thinkers are not weak, they are reasonable and logical. I respect that. However believers are not weak either. As well as trusting in God, it takes enormous strength of character to be able to continue to live and believe something against the odds, in a world where people are getting sick of God and people that believe in him. If I wanted an easy, I-can-see-where-I-am-going life I would have rejected Jesus long ago. Trusting in God is tough but I have found that it gives me a whole new perspective and purpose. It may seem that God doesn’t care about the issues of the world since they haven’t been stopped but he is there right beside you, suffering and agonizing just like Jesus on the cross over what the world has become. All of this is not logical or rational. Not all things in this world are rational. Emotions are not rational. It is true that is it chemicals in the brain but this is merely the physical response. Faith does affect the brain but again that is a physical response to something else. A scientific fact would be that for every emotional or mental response we encounter, the body has a physical response to it. (for example: hormones) When a loved one dies we do not shed tears because we shed tears, our body sheds tears as a response to what has happened to us. What we can see and support with scientific evidence most certainly exists but it could indicate (be a symptom of)something much deeper. As a christian I would say that earthquakes, tsunamis and other natural disasters are a symptom of a sinful world accompanied by an earth that doesn’t work properly because of sin. We cannot scientifically prove or disprove God because science is the study of the physical and logical world and God is not physical or logical and is not limited to this world. But just because we cannot understand some of what is there doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. We can not understand the geometry of a line and how it goes on forever or the number pi or the fourth dimension. We do not understand how space affects time (a black hole’s gravity can bend time actually) There is so much to learn and so much we humans do not understand. A small child will not understand Einstein’s theory of relativity. (Of course there are the really smart kids out there) It doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that some of their minds haven’t gotten around it yet. The same goes with God, because we cannot limit him with logic and reason. Because of this some throw him away saying he cannot exist. He exists, just that we have not reached that far into understanding the concept. A person is not retarded if they think differently and outside the box of rationality. In the end, it is your choice to accept or reject God who comes through Jesus Christ his son.
Atheists, I am really sorry for the way many Christians (including myself) have treated you guys. You have a right to live in the United States of America as much as we Christians do. It must be very annoying for someone to say that a God exists in a world where God and religion seem to only make people hate and kill each other while exuding themselves from all blame. I am very sorry that there are many arrogant Christians out there who think they are better than everyone else. I am very sorry that Christians have killed millions of people and committed other atrocities apparently in the name of God (although it is not in the name of God at all). It seems to contradict that God is loving and caring. I am sorry to all of you that have endured suffering in your lives and find it very hard to believe in a loving heavenly father. I am sorry that Christianity seems like just another scam to control “stupid” people and that it also seems like we are trying to intimidate you with hell. I am sorry for all the Christians who really want to show the love of God but find that they can’t because of the hatred of other Christians. I am sorry that this is a tough world to live in and that no one. My final note is that belief is sometimes very hard to live by and that living the life that Christians are supposed to live is terrifying. It is much easier to only believe in rationality but I believe in so much more than that. I do not believe in what just seems nice. I respect atheists as people and their views although I find it really sad to see how many of you seem to see God as oppressive and how you grow to hate him so. God is really not like that. It is very hard to explain because of the way Christians have treated others and how people base God off of the hatefulness of some Christians. I do not care about what I can get out of people. I will not manipulate others to believe in Jesus. I am not someone who will use religion to control the masses. Every human being must decide what to believe. In the end I will believe what I believe. Still want to call me stupid and retarded? Fine, I really do not care.
Respectfully,
From a believer in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.